Unqualified teachers

[morethanpotatoprints]

Who, apart from some qualified teachers are really mad about this. I do think there seems to be a lot of sensationalist reporting going on in the press.
I heard an advert on the radio today for unqualified teachers posts and apparentely they need a degree to be able to teach and in any subject. How is this any different than today with people with degrees in Textiles teaching in primary schools.
However, according to some QTs on here children will suffer as a consequence and anybody is allowed to teach without so much as a GCSE let alone a degree

For a level 8 in music, a child must develop, compose and perform extensive pieces in a variety of styles and genres. I find it highly unlikely that a 10 year old would be able to do so to the extent required for a level 8 assessment.

I dispute, to a point, the bit about having a relevant degree. One of my colleagues has a degree in English & Drama, but also teaches Health & Social Care and Child Development. Given how quickly syllabi change, having a degree in a specific subject is no guarantee of knowledge anyway. I am constantly learning new skills and material- it's one of the things that makes me a good teacher

@evil that's what I meant.

I'm not sure how someone without QTS can declare that QTS is worthless.

I am enjoying this thread due to the total incongruity of OP's posts! If onlu she saw the irony..

And yy evildivers being able to teach anything is what makes a good teacher, nt knowing loads. I assume the OP thinks her DD will learn loads from OP despite her, er, being unqualified.

OP - can you answer me a question? Are you concerned at the teaching your DD received, and if so, what do you think the school should do about it?

As the OP has QTLS if she is a member of the IFS she is (as of now) qualified to teach in secondary schools.

Its that she doesn't seem to have the where with all to cope with subjects that aren't in her comfort zone.

The irony is that with no GCSE's or QTS apparentely I am allowed to teach in Secondary schools. The level 2 I gained in English and Maths was deemed equivalent to GCSE's for F.E but for Secondary and Primary a GCSE was essential in Eng, Maths and Sci. It was the same for GTP/SCITT etc.

As a poster said on the other thread, you should perhaps be pleased that I am not prepared to do this as I don't feel qualified to. This however didn't stop many I know from doing this when it was illegal, including the schools who employed them.

I think that as so many qualified teachers have been allowed/encouraged to work in unsuitable situations, maybe the unqualified teachers might not be a bad move but an improvement.

So if this means I won't teach outside my comfort zone well I'm proud not to. However, this isn't the case as I doubt any of you would be happy taking over an A level Maths class (mat cover) when you didn't have a GCSE oh and an Ed psych report stating that any ability you had in maths was down to sheer tenacity.

I would willingly teach History, Geography, any business related courses. I had a contract to teach Sociology which wasn't ideal and certainly outside my comfort zone and managed it fine. I could probably name several others if I thought long enough.

I was concerned about my dd's education as far as standards are concerned. It wasn't personal to her school as the system and nc is obviously the same at all state schools. There was nothing the school could do. We left on good terms and will keep in touch as its a church school and dd sees friends and teachers at church too.

Oh yes, my dd is 8 not 10. She has just left y3. The music coordinator told me she was working at level 8. "It was a shame she was leaving as they would lose one off the G&T register". I had no idea she was on the register and she wouldn't have done music in school until y5. I have no problem with this and didn't expect special treatment, although inclusion in music activities before y5 would have been good. She practices about 3/4 hours a day and plays 4 instruments, all her choice and self directed. She missed so much school/ educated off site due to music and I was worried she was missing vital points. Now she can do that and be educated at home/ museum/library/park/supermarket, etc.

MTPP

Please stop jumping over the fence.

In your first couple of paragraph it reads as thought you support the QTS and standards then in the next couple you go back on your statement and then in the same sentence you say that unqualified staff wouldn't be better.

The 'nc' is only a progression of skills, morethan. Schools approach the teaching of the skills differently.
What do you find so bad about it?

It sounds like there was more of a problem with school because dd was often absent, not with the style or content of the teaching. Children find it hard to catch up if they miss all or part of a sequence of lessons, and if this was happening frequently it's no wonder you want to HE.

How can she practise 3/4 hours a day AND go to school.....and eat? And play? And see her friends?

And, why didn't the school teach music until Y5???? Music is part of the KS1 and KS2 curriculum.

mrz, those who responded to my comment in the earlier thread didn't quite answer my questions. QualifiedTeacher, the starter of the thread, didn't respond at all.

On this thread, responses range from 0 to 10% 'bad' teachers.

LemarchandsBox, 10% (more in my view) 'bad' teachers and it not being easy to remove them IS THE PROBLEM which needs be dealt with. That is why QualifiedTeacher's entrenched position of 'qualified' teachers only is untenable.

LemarchandsBox, the systematic education of children over an extended period of time is not at all the same as health problems which require precise treatment urgently. As I said before, they are two completely different professions which cannot be compared in this discussion.

ravenAK, you are suggesting 'bad' teachers leave very quickly. That is simply not true. There are plently of 'bad' 'qualified' 'experienced' teachers around.

So if not 'bad' English and Maths teachers, who is mainly responsible for the poor numeracy and literacy standards of so many children coming out of school these days?

Are you sure there is no shortage of English and Maths teachers these days? It is not very long ago that teachers had to be recruited from overseas.

TheOriginalSteamingNit, 'appropriate' skills means knowing the subject to be taught and the ability to communicate well, with or without having a teaching qualification. Did your DDs go to independent or grammar schools?

CumbernauldMathsTutor

The reason why I didn't answer your post was because the answers would be subjective. 10% in one school could be 1% in another, it all depends on the number of teachers in the school and how we see them, just because a teacher or parent thinks that they are bad doesn't mean that they are.

Is it easy to get rid of "bad" teachers? yes and no, it depends what they have done and the school must follow the proceedures liad down in law as with most jobs if that person leaves to go to a similar job they will stay in that area of work. Again your definition of a bad teacher is subjective.

Overseas teachers have to pass various tests to prove that they can teach in the UK. similar to those from England that want to teach in Scotland.

You say in your last post "more in my view" you show that you are starting with a bias.

You didn't respond to replies on the other thread and still haven't clarified what you mean by bad It's a very subjective word. Someone I consider bad may be amazing in another person's view.

TheOriginalSteamingNit, 'appropriate' skills means knowing the subject to be taught and the ability to communicate well, with or without having a teaching qualification. Did your DDs go to independent or grammar schools?

Ha ha... We've obviously not crossed one another on education threads before. No, they do not.

Re. Appropriate skills - I would say that what you've put there is appropriate knowledge - also this ability to communicate well seems a bit post hoc. My answer is still the same: if they could be subbed by a willing maths prof for a few weeks when no teacher at all was available, ok: but I would be very worried about that as a long term fix.

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6265653

Maths Tutors

'Bad' is a very poor adjective, such as 'nice' and 'good.' You are a tutor and of course you see students who are weak in Maths. The reason they are weak in Maths may not be because of their teachers but because of a system that allows 30+ children, sometimes up to 37 being taught at once. Yes, all sort of factors allow this.

If the government invested more in schools as opposed to taking out more money and we had a maximum of 25 in a class in every State school and employed more of the 50,000 unemployed teachers etc., you would see better results. A student that comes to you with appalling Maths is not necessarily the fault of their Maths teachers who are having to teach them and many more others.

You really have a very narrow perspective. I have tutored for over 12 years. I am not a Maths graduate, in fact I failed my GSCE Maths the first time YET I have managed to get the students I tutor to Level 8/Grade B GCSE in Maths because I have the time to discover their best individual learning preference. I will only tutor Maths at Primary and Maths at Secondary to very weak students.

Maths is about getting student to understand things in stages, there are factors that prevent this from happening in many schools which is not the fault of the class teacher. Some of the low ability groups have SEN students who have had State funded TAs assigned to them but the funding has to be used in other ways by the school to make ends met. So a child that can not sit still is left to wander around the class talking to themselves when they were statemented to have a TA with them the whole day. What are we as teachers to do? We plan for that child so that we can get them under control because if we do not, no whatsoever learning takes place.

Some parents do not want their children assessed. If their child is not assessed, the SEN funding can not be available to them. Some parents feel a stigma in having an SEN child. There are numerous reasons why SEN children do not get the support they need. This impacts teaching and learning.

Today's children's attention span is extremely poor. When I was at school we had teachers rabbitting on and on and we all sat their and listened and behaved. Not today's Xfactor, iPhone generation. You have to explain things in 3-5 minutes and get them on task in an engaging way. How can you progress learning quickly when you HAVE to teach in that way otherwise they will start misbehaving? Whose fault is it that children can not sit and listen to a teacher for more than 5 minutes?

How many children spend hours in front of TVs, playing mindless video games, on Fb etc?
How many children sit around a dining table every evening and have a meal?
How many hours do children spend having sensible conversations with adults daily?

Children switch off as soon as you talk to them for more than 5 minutes. FACT. And it's not just children from poorer background. Middle class children are even more pampered but I've tutored children who are in private schools AND have a tutor EVERY DAY.

Learning is something that has to be made more casual for today's children. FACT. We have to make it engaging and exciting. If you are doing a really boring topic, print it out on a coloured worksheet, it helps! But it takes up twice the amount of money from your photocopying budget. Some teachers, like me, makes copies at home. That's why we are so poor.

Please be very careful at assigning poor educational standards totally to teachers. We are at the bottom of the pile. We are NEVER consulted about educational matters. Our representatives i.e. our unions are and have always been powerless. Our HTs and SLTs are doing the best they can with the resources they have and the policies the HAVE to adhere to.

You have been asked numerous times to define what you mean as 'bad' teachers. You can not.

Do you expect us as teachers to be mindreaders as well?

Rant over!

Is that why a lot of good teachers are switching to teaching in the private sector, then, QualifiedTeacher? Because they get smaller class sizes, a higher proportion of pupils with reasonable concentration spans, better pay, and more time actually teaching?

Just a little innocent question.
Why do children at private schools need tutors? We've been led to believe that the teaching is second to none.

RS

A lot of the best teachers would never leave the state sector because they entered it knowing that their contributions make a real difference to the lives of the disadvantaged. Regardless of the problems they face, they will stick with it.

Despite all the problems I have outlined, there are amazing QTs that can teach outstanding lessons with all those and many more mitigating factors. That's why I believe the training is essential.

When class sizes are down to 30 and the SEN children's behaviours create only low level disruption, it is a lot easier. But it would still be challenging for many unQTs.

I personally would never want to teach in the private sector. And there are many more like me.

Apologies for repeating myself for the 3rd time in as many threads, but the Govt's announcement is being misunderstood by many people and the debate about qualified vs unqualified is actually not the main issue in many ways.

[https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/teachers%20standards.pdf This]] is a link to the new teacher standards, effective from next month. Page 7 onwards is what you need to read: 8 standards tat cover the whole spectrum of skills needed to have QTS.

Here is an earlier post of mine in which I try to summarise what we actually are dealing with:

^QTS are: "a formal set of skills and qualities that enable you to be an effective teacher" (from the DFE's own website).

It's not about the qualifications (although that's another kettle of fish but could be justifiable in some circumstances).

It's about the Govt saying that these professional standards do not matter. Read them: wouldn't you want anyone that educates your child to have these?

And yes, previously, QTS were tick-boxed by those assessing NQTs and then forgotten about. Performance management was supposed to ensure ongoing quality and continual professional development for teachers but we all know it was largely unsuccessful.

From September it will be hugely relevant for very teacher, NQTs to Headteachers.
Every school will have to demonstrate they have adhered to these and that there is proof for the standards continually being met. As a parent, I 100% would want this.

Gove is now saying it's up to new academies if they want to insist on this with unqualified teachers. This is bonkers. And a dangerous move.^

Sorry. Link here

And I wish 'smaller class sizes' would stop being quoted as a high advantage. Research has now dispelled this as a single factor in ensuring quality education. The teacher is everything. Class sizes only matter significantly to the progress of a child when there are groups of 12 or fewer and even then, if the teacher is crapola, progress will not be what it should be.

A great teacher can help their students progress, whether that are in a class of 15 or 30.

FB

Some of the students I tutored in private school were in the bottom sets and the parents wanted them moved up so that they had value for money. I had one boy I taught to a level 7 in Maths but could not get into a grammar because of distance. He went to my local private school, the Maths textbook he was learning from was set at level 5 to 6. And he was in the top stream.

Whereas the boy who got in to the grammar school had a Maths book that started at Level 6/7.

A lot of the children in private schools have 'problems' understanding their teachers because many are unQTs. The best teachers teach the top stream and the not so best, below and bottom.

The private school students all had posh accents etc. but some have very poor numeracy and literacy skills. Parents still believed in the school and wouldn't want them to go to state schools. Sometimes it's simply snobbery i.e. the kind of children they will NEVER mix with.

There are also 'live in tutors.' They get paid around £25,000 a year and some even get a car. Some children in private schools have a live in tutor that goes over their homework with them every evening. So the learning is more 'casual' and less of an effort because they are constantly revising and redoing what they have learnt or do in class.

I'm not sure there is any evidence to show that "good" teachers do move to independent schools only that some teachers move between the sectors (some teachers move from independent to state )

Agree mrz. I've seen no evidence whatsoever to back this up. And no anecdotal evidence either, which is usually easier to come across.

Another one here that sees no evidence that 'good' teachers move to independent schools. Several of the very best at the comprehensive school I work at would not consider that move for their own ideological reasons.