Why do faith schools dominate the league tables?

[benetint]

I looked at the league tables for primary schools in my area (nottingham) and I was surprised to see the top few were not schools in affluent areas bur were all catholic schools. Many of them are actually in quite deprived areas. So what is it catholic schools are doing to get such excellent results? Is it that they can be more selective about who they take? Are they just exam factories? Ate they stricter with their kids? Or are they just better in general than secular states?

Steve, I only know your abilities as shown on this thread. Maybe in RL you're astonishingly bright but just have a really good cover going as being rather slow. I don't know.

Lots of very bright opponents of faith schools on this thead, from the evidence of this thread (no, I don't know them either) eg merrymouse, so I'm certainly NOT going to claim your slowness on this thread is down to your lack of faith or something.

If you read before commenting, you'd see I'd repeatedly stressed it was Stalin I was referring to, not Hitler, for example. And yes, Stalin was a very public atheist - he went out of his way to persecute others specifially for their religious beliefs. It wasn't some kind of irrelevant characteristic - his appropriation of religious authority and symbolism was part of his method.

b&b - if you think taxpayers should fund religious schools, should they also fund other organisations which exist to promote particular religions? Serious question.

Cross-posted! Touche!!

Steve - Trotsky was Jewish.

B&B by race yes, not by religion.

@ B&B As am I, in fact.

WavingLeaves - but taxpayers don't fund the religious elements of these schools - the churches etc/parents do - we pay a hefty voluntary charge to cover religious instruction. Are you suggesting that their secular education should not be free?

I don't think the state should fund any organisations that promote particular religions, although I can see the argument for C of E organisations to be promoted in a C of E country and have no problem with that. I don't think people should be at a disadvantage because of their faith - I think state funding to end discrimination is reasonable.

Cecily P - why is it outrageous? Why should it only be Catholics, Jews etc etc who have to move to find a suitable school, - if of course, Steve deigns to let us have one at all - while everyone else is entitled to schools on their doorstep?

But they don't have to move to get a suitable school, (they cannot be excluded on religious grounds) and they only have to move to get their ideal school. There were plenty of Catholics and Jews at my primary school, although there was a not particularly desirable Catholic school about 5 minutes walk away - though I will grant the nearest Jewish school was about 3 miles away.

Steve, you surprise me.

So you see Judaism as a race not a religion, I assume?

And you are happy to identify as the former but virulently anti- the latter?

How strange.

B&B, actually, if you do a ctrl + f, you'll find that Stalin wasn't mentioned until after that comment. However, I still should have known due to the mention of Gulags. It's so very common to hear the Hitler argument that I jumped to a conclusion, which I am happy to admit was an error on my part.

Judaism is a religion.... being Jewish is both a race and a religion, and one can be either without being the other. Many Jews are atheist, many are quite outspoken on it too Hitchens was Jewish, so is Bill Maher... lots really.

I must catch my train, will continue this at 9am if it's still going, as it's been fun :p

Good evening all.

B&B, there is a difference between awareness and understanding/ knowing - school trips don't really cut it here. Would it be so detrimental to your children to be schooled with those of different faiths? Surely, the purpose of school anyway is the acquisition of academic knowledge to enable them to live a full, productive and active life in society. Church/ Temple/ Mosque/ Home is for the teaching of religion?

Cecily P - but what if the nearest school is Hindu? Or C of E. Then they all have to travel. That's life.

That situation can happen to anyone of any faith - it's not only those who don't want faith schools who are affected.

The difference is that those who want religious education for their own children understand that others want this too and are tolerant of the situation - I feel a tad more tolerance for those with different views concerning religion would be a good thing on this thread.

I don't think it is easy to open new schools.

In my old London borough there are 10 secondary schools, of which 6 are not academically selective and have no religious affiliation. Another 7 form entry school is required to educate children currently at primary school, but so far funding granted under Labour has been dropped and no replacement funding has been offered.

How would you propose that those 6 schools be divided up so that everybody gets their favourite kind of school? What if we all change our minds in 5 year's time and decide that we have a new favourite kind of school? Do we close the old schools down?

There are many other areas of the UK that also lack school places or have substandard existing school buildings. Why would the government be providing funding for new schools without tackling these problems first? Where is the money supposed to come from?

Meanwhile, I still question the idea that a 5 year old should be ferried across town to get to school, or that this is a logistical option for most people.

"WavingLeaves - but taxpayers don't fund the religious elements of these schools - the churches etc/parents do - we pay a hefty voluntary charge to cover religious instruction. Are you suggesting that their secular education should not be free?"

So apart from the religious instruction, the school is otherwise owned, run and paid for by the state?

The thing is that school buildings don't exist in isolation, they exist within a community - the fact that your school operates as it does means that other local children will be discriminated against and forced to attend a different school, possibly further away. The state won't build an 'extra' non-discriminatory school next door to make up for the fact that yours discriminates. Therefore the fact that your school discriminates will affect the choices and options of others in the community.

sammypaws - I don;t totally disagree, which is why, once I and my children had a solid grounding in our faith, I/they went/will go to local non-faith schools, where they will meet people from all faiths.

But it is important to me at primary, as without that initial understanding, I genuinely believe that their heritage would be lost to them. Once they know who they are and where they come from,I feel they can mix but without losing their own roots.

At my dd's secondary, she is the only person from her faith in her class - her friends come from more or less every major religion and no religion in the UK. :)

Wavingleaves - you said that:

"The thing is that school buildings don't exist in isolation, they exist within a community - the fact that your school operates as it does means that other local children will be discriminated against and forced to attend a different school, possibly further away. The state won't build an 'extra' non-discriminatory school next door to make up for the fact that yours discriminates. Therefore the fact that your school discriminates will affect the choices and options of others in the community. "

No, there is a slightly under-subscribed non-denominational state primary a few minutes from my dc's school (which is over-subscribed). The local school gets more or less identical results academically (neither stellar). No local child has no place to go to - the other school has plenty of spare places and is more centrally located - my dcs' school is in a slightly inconvenient location relatively.

So your assumptions - which is what they are - are just untrue, in this case.

Cecily P - but what if the nearest school is Hindu? Or C of E. Then they all have to travel. That's life.

I think people on here would be trying to argue that it would be better that the nearest school was not CofE or Hindu, so that anyone could go to it so there would be no need to travel.

The difference is that those who want religious education for their own children understand that others want this too and are tolerant of the situation - I feel a tad more tolerance for those with different views concerning religion would be a good thing on this thread.

It is obviously what you want for your own children, but do you really think it is what all parents who apply to faith schools want. What about parents who go for the really desirable faith school, but avoid the less desirable ones and will put a popular community school as their second choice (or even a faith school from a different religion).

At my dd's secondary, she is the only person from her faith in her class - her friends come from more or less every major religion and no religion in the UK.

Blimey, so after all that, you are telling us you have opted for a community school, not a faith school, for your DD's secondary school.

merrymouse - I don't know your area so can't really comment. As above, I'd expect market forces to play a part here, to match need to schools and faith is part of this, so that if, say a large number of Polish immigrants moved into the area, a new Catholic school might be proposed and supported by local parents. Conversely, if an excellent faith school opened elsewhere, local people might move there and needs for that might drop. but faith is only one issue among a web of inter-related issues - one school might fail its Ofsted, or there might be a notorious case of knife crime at another or great SATS esults at a third. All of which would impact on the relative popularity of the schools.

In addition, the local population might grow - or shrink. Not sure how you expect me to come up with a 'formula' to cover all these variables.

"So your assumptions - which is what they are - are just untrue, in this case."

Well that is lucky for the children in your area then. There are plenty of areas where this doesn't apply, and where children of the 'wrong' faith are significantly disadvantaged with regard to having a choice.

Cecily - agree - it's not about having to travel to a specific school, it's about having a decent choice which is available for all.

I feel very strongly that children should be able to go to school within their own locality, for both community and environmental reasons.

bread while you're aquainted with the terminology, you need to use it correctly to avoid sounding like someone trying to hide their meagre intellect. A general statement was made, religion hinders science, which you deliberately misunderstood to be an exclusive statement, all religion hinders science all of the time. The only particular ly uncalled for statement, Jo is stupid, was made by you.

CecilyP - yes, I have. But I'd argue till the cows come home for anyone who wished to have the choice of faith schools at secondary as well as primary level.

Not clear why that surprises you.

Haven't time to read through whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating anything that's already been said.
I teach in a Catholic school in a deprived area and we get very good results. We are most definitely NOT selective and have a significantly high proportion of special needs pupils. We are also not exclusively Catholic. I can't remember the exact figures off the top of my head but around about 30-40% of other religions, the main one being Muslim.
I'm not sure why exactly I can say how we achieve what we achieve. Small groups with lots of intervention helps. But having worked in non religious schools previously, I would say that the education is more formal. Hard to put my finger on it really.