Why do faith schools dominate the league tables?

[benetint]

I looked at the league tables for primary schools in my area (nottingham) and I was surprised to see the top few were not schools in affluent areas bur were all catholic schools. Many of them are actually in quite deprived areas. So what is it catholic schools are doing to get such excellent results? Is it that they can be more selective about who they take? Are they just exam factories? Ate they stricter with their kids? Or are they just better in general than secular states?

CecilyP - "It is obviously what you want for your own children, but do you really think it is what all parents who apply to faith schools want. What about parents who go for the really desirable faith school, but avoid the less desirable ones and will put a popular community school as their second choice (or even a faith school from a different religion). "

I would argue that parents should have the freedom to pick the education that suits their child - and in some cases that may be a faith school and in some cases that may not. Not all faith schools are identical, and some parents (like my dh, who as I said above, does not share my faith) prefer faith schools for their children for other reasons - and why shouldn't they?

Just because you cannot see the benefits of faith schools, lots of others with no faith themselves, can.

"So your assumptions - which is what they are - are just untrue, in this case."

And actually - my original argument does hold true I think. If your school did not operate discriminatively, ALL the local children would have a choice of two schools, not one.

ClaudieCat - thanks for returning the thread to its roots. Exactly. Lots of parents like faith schools because they like their traditional values and discipline etc. This I know of under-subscribed Jewish schools where the vast majority of pupils are actually Muslim - but the parents value the traditional values, and respect for religion, even though their religion is not the main religion of the school (and contrary to the tired stereotypes of Jewish-Muslim conflict).

Not sure how you expect me to come up with a 'formula' to cover all these variables.

I don't, because there isn't one.

As I said before, school places aren't like packets of crisps where you can expand and contract production according to the market. People can't just move somewhere else if they can't get into the local school. When you invest in a school building you do so assuming that that school will be there for maybe 50 more years. A certain number of children can be educated in a defined space and they need sports facilities, science labs, art blocks etc. etc.

'A New Catholic School' for Polish immigrants would cost millions of pounds. Where is the money supposed to come from?

But the local children are all guaranteed a place at the better-located school already. If they really want to apply to the faith school, there is nothing stopping them - they just need to attend the place of worship X number of times, and they can.

In practice, they'd do identical state curriculums but a load of religious stuff too that I can't imagine would interest them- but that's entirely up to them. If they find the faith stuff interesting,they are very welcome to apply and would get a place.

"they just need to attend the place of worship X number of times, and they can."

But why should I attend a place of worship that contradicts my fundamental beliefs? (Wasn't that why all those people went to America all those centuries ago...)

merrymouse - the Catholic parents could apply to set up a free school and would have to contribute to funding if they did so. Any other non-religious group could do that too, and would also contribute to funding. The state would pay some of it because they have a duty to provide schol places and if they're going to set one up,they may as well set upone for which their is currently an unmet demand.

Re school buildings lasting for 50 years+, this is true. However, the schools within them may last rather less time - I have known of many schools that closed down and the buildings were then re-used by another school.

merrymouse,then what is the problem. You send your kids to the perfectly nice other school.

Your kid can only attend one school at once. What is the problem?

I don't see why choice here is so essential - having 2 different choices, yes, but why would changing the faith school so that local people now have two identical choices (nothing between them in results or facilities, both around average) be better???

Remember, before the faith school set up recently (with its own funds), local people only had one choice - they haven't lost any choices, they have gained one. If they don't wish to avail themselves of it,that is entirely up to them.

"Stalin was an atheist, but not driven to his actions by any lack of belief."
I would disagree - his extreme persecution of religious groups, or any type of religious activity (including for e.g. effectively imprisoning the former darling of the Communist movement, Maxim Gorky, for daring to suggest that there could be a theistic version of communism) was because of his strongly anti-theistic/anti religious views. If it was purely political, he would not have outlawed religious practice to the extent that he did, or persecute religious groups to the extent that he did. Cuba is also communist, and officially an atheist/secular state, but religion is still active and tolerated. If you disagree - then what would you say was his motivating factor in banning religious insitutions/practice, sending rabbis, monks, priests etc. to the gulag?

I agree that atheism isn't a belief system - it is (by definition) a lack of belief, but, there seem to be an awful number of people out there who are turning it into a doctrine, albeit one with no central authority/system of not beliefs/representative groups, which is kind of a problem, for atheists, in a way.

You seem to have a rather naive faith in the government's willingness to fund free schools.

B&B

I note that you did not answer my question as to whether you believed it would be detrimental to your children to attend a school with those of a different faith - so I assume that you then believe that this would be the case, which is really quite sad, as they could potentially gain so much from it. Exposure to other faiths does not dilute/ corrupt/ harm, it teaches tolerance.

As I have said before, and others have too, I have no issue with faith schools, I have an issue with the state paying for them. I know that you say that you pay a levy for religious education, but unless that means that the school is non-segregated during academic lessons and segregated during religious lessons then that doesn't cut it either I'm afraid - the result would remain state funded discrimination.

I feel truly sorry for those that have to feign a belief in a religion in order to secure their child a place at a good school. Thankfully, we are able to opt out of the whole sorry state of affairs, and pay for our daughter to be schooled in a happy, open-minded environment.

Not that it matters in the slightest, but in the interests of accuracy, IAMSteve, you claimed that

"B&B, actually, if you do a ctrl + f, you'll find that Stalin wasn't mentioned until after that comment. However, I still should have known due to the mention of Gulags. It's so very common to hear the Hitler argument that I jumped to a conclusion, which I am happy to admit was an error on my part. "

Actually,your comment was made at 16.32, mine at 16.24, and Abs clarified it earlier at 16.19, too.

Though an understandable mistake as it has been a rather fast-moving and long-winded thread...

Agreed Breadandbutter. Our Muslim parents say they prefer the education their children get at a Catholic school for the reasons you describe. So much so that a few buck the trend and go on to choose a Catholic secondary school for their children. They have no problem with their children attending mass but to be fair we have difficulty getting them to mass at other times, mainly as it clashes with Muslim school. In fact our Muslim children probably understand and know more about the Catechism than some of our Catholics.

sammypaws - yes, I certainly did answer your point and very much in the negative. Please see my post of 17.12.

I think we agree, actually.

merrymouse,then what is the problem. You send your kids to the perfectly nice other school.

Aaargh!

But as has been explained many times on this thread, there isn't a perfectly nice other school for many people. There are many areas where if you don't go to church and you live too far away from the next non-selective school, you have no choice of school - you are at the bottom of the list for every school in your borough. You have no choice what so ever.

However, your advice seems to be just forget your principles, go to church or accept the school 4 miles away or set up your own free school. Can you not see that for most people these aren't reasonable options?

Ooh, sammypaws,I retract my statement.I do not agree with you at all.

How hilarious that someone who thinks that pupils being allowed to choose a school on grounds of faith is 'discrimination' yet pupils being allowed to choose a school on grounds of wealth is not at all discrimination!

Presumably you'll happily pay for my dcs to attend your dd's school. :) Because 6you^ wouldn't dream of limiting others' choices, obviously.

You couldn't make it up. Arff.

Sorry I forgot.

Your other option was spend tens of thousands of pounds and move house.

It surprises me because you had argued so vehemently about your need for a faith school. Do you see though; you have the choice - the community school hasn't rejected you, but the faith school could reject me.

merrymouse. I am not Christian. In the situation you describe, I would be in EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION AS YOU. So I am just practicing what I preach,and telling you what I would do.

I would move and if I couldn't, then I'd lump it.

But I'd do either with considerably better grace than you, as I would do it with the understanding that I had chosen to live in an area with no suitable schools and have children there - and that my children's wishes did not automatically trump the wishes of all the children currently at the C of E school.

And moving need not cost 'tens of thousands of pounds' unless you are fortunate enough to own your own house and determined never to rent.

By the way, it is perfectly possible to set up a non-faith free school - the areaI used to live in, which is in just such a secondary black hole, is doing so currently.

The black hole has nothing particularly to do with faith schools - the 2 nesrest schools are both sink schools and quite a way away. So local residents are setting up a local alternative.

It can be done.

B&B

Again, with the lack of understanding. You said that you would be happy for your children to attend a non-faith school when they were comfortable in their heritage - that's not actually agreeing with what I said. I don't have an issue with faith schools - i think you may have a blind spot here - I disagree with the state paying for them and thereby denying those of no/ different faiths a place.

What I am doing, because of my principles (I am not prepared to tell lies to gain a place), is opting out, even though we certainly pay enough taxes for one education, and paying again for a balanced education. I am not the only one doing this I am sure.

Yes, I am sure they would take your children as they do not discriminate on the basis of faith.

Sorry, breadandbutterfly, I don't have any feelings either way about your children attending their faith based primary school, because there are so few non-Christian faith schools that it doesn't really impact on the rest of the community, and I take your point that they are funded to a great extent by those attending the school/practicing the faith.

However, when you argue about include church schools in your argument it's like you have just landed from Mars.

Iamsteve Try this article which decries the BHA witch hunt as Free Schools can not teach Creationism as a science.

I know you have funds to gather, but try telling the truth.

Again - show me a school in the UK where Creationism is taught as science.

I have every sympathy for anyone in a situation where they can not get into a school of their choosing. I think that by trying to improve all schools there leaves room for faith schools if that is what the public want.

"By the way, it is perfectly possible to set up a non-faith free school - the areaI used to live in, which is in just such a secondary black hole, is doing so currently."

Sorry, but this attitude that if you don't like the local schools you can simply 'set up your own' as it it was a cupcake business or something is a very limited solution. Not everyone can have exactly the flavour of school they want, there will only ever be a very limited number of schools in a given area. Which is why it's so important to make sure that the schools that we do have serve as wide a section of the community as well as they can.