Why do faith schools dominate the league tables?

[benetint]

I looked at the league tables for primary schools in my area (nottingham) and I was surprised to see the top few were not schools in affluent areas bur were all catholic schools. Many of them are actually in quite deprived areas. So what is it catholic schools are doing to get such excellent results? Is it that they can be more selective about who they take? Are they just exam factories? Ate they stricter with their kids? Or are they just better in general than secular states?

I agree absolutely. Of course it's absurd, and no-one desires that people fake their religion to gain entry to a school. That is not my preferred or recommended option - as above, it is (a) move or (b) set up another school.

Sorry, I still think that is an absolutely outrageous suggestion.

I imagine, with the reference to gulags, that B&B is referring to Stalin

But for the 76% of taxpayers who described themselves as adherents of a religion in the census, it is not very fair, or a reasonable allocation of scarce resources.

I wonder what percentage of that 76% would fulfil the criteria for admission to some of the more selective faith schools.

IAmSTeve - you asked how humanists interfere with my (or a fellow believer's) life - from your posts here, clearly, left to your own devices, you would abolish faith schools. Militant atheists in other countries have abolished freedom of religion and indeed persecuted people for their faith - the tenor of your posts does not give me total confidence that given free rein, this would not be your preferred course of action, either.

You seem to have more than just a lack of belief in the divine, which is of course, totally your own business - you come across as having an intense dislike of religion in general, and all religious people.

Just to clarify, I have nothing against any other humanists at all but you personally come across as both somewhat slow-witted and and rather unpleasant.

Ah okay, doh.

WavingLeaves,no, I thought the gulags would be a bit of a giveaway.I was referring to Stalin. As the Communists were specifically and overtly anti-religious, which of course Hitler was not. But it doesn't really matter. My point was that the fact that one individual atheist happened to be history's worst mass murderer does not provide 'proof' that atheism is evil or that all atheists are evil.

You cannot reason from the particular to the general.

^"I would also argue that where religious schools are popular, this is mostly due to the perception that they are perceived as being better than the neighbouring schools academically, not for religious reasons. And they are often better academically since they operate discriminatory admissions policies which have the overall effect of excluding less 'desirable' intake, again for reasons which have little to do with religion. "

Evidence for either of these claims?^

Mumsnet, surely!

bread If I say that men are taller than women, are you going to argue the toss that venus williams is taller than your brother? The point is that most religions most of the time hinder science etc.

I notice you only take issue with point 3. Do you accept 1,2 and 4 are true in terms of what is said by many of the leaders of the protestant, catholic and islamic churches?

I am utterly bemused to learn there are people out there actively campaigning about what other peoples children are taught. Fighting for secular state schools is one thing, but to think you know better than other (religious) people about how/what their children are taught is just ridiculous.

"You cannot reason from the particular to the general."

Well, I think it's fairly clear that dogma (religious or not) and the belief that you as a collective are RIGHT, is a dangerous force. Self-belief combined with tribalism leads people to do unspeakable things. Believing that god is on your side just makes it worse.

Cecily P - why is it outrageous? Why should it only be Catholics, Jews etc etc who have to move to find a suitable school, - if of course, Steve deigns to let us have one at all - while everyone else is entitled to schools on their doorstep?

If there is no suitable school, why is is 'outrageous' that parents should set one up? Why is nicking some other kid's school, and changing it to fit your child, against the wishes of all the current children and parents, somehow more acceptable to you???

If your child was at a school you had chosen for its values and ethos and someone came along and demanded that those values and ethos changed to suit, not the majority of local parents, but a small minority of disgruntled ones who had been too lazy to research school options earlier and/or set up their own school, how would you feel?

B&B, yes it would take a very long time to address each individual religion and the aspects within it... and they all have something in common, blind faith and doctrine.

I assume you're referring to Hitler above? That's a common mis-conception, he was a Roman Catholic. The Nazis wore "Got Mitt Uns"on their belt buckles (God With Us), Hitler spoke extensively about his religion in Mein Kampf, and on many occasions addressed the nation in public speeches declaring his religion to them.

Aside from that, the whole thing is again a common argument which demonstrates how little research you've done into it, as it's covered as pretty much the basics... you would have to not look, in order to not find it. What I'm referring to there, is that such atrocities by for example, Stalin, were not committed because of his atheism, or in the name of atheism. The above mentioned "issues" that are committed by religious people, are because of their religious beliefs, in the name of their religion.

Back with the insults I see, is it common place for you to say anybody who disagrees with you is not intelligent, despite the fact that they are having (or attempting to have) a civilised debate with you, bringing up various points that are likely seen by many as valid, or is it only the people you struggle to argue with because they are able to point out the flaws in your arguments and lack of research so easily. One might go so far as to say it's an insecurity, maybe your just projecting your subconscious doubts of your own intelligence, or lack thereof, onto others. Mine is however not the place to say though... after all, I don't know you and so wouldn't propose to have so full an understanding of you to know your capabilities with the certainty that you seem to know mine.

JoTheHot - that is a complete misreading of my post and also a complete misunderstanding of reasoning from the particular to the general - what you cited was actually the opposite.

It really is like arguing with children today.

You see,I am going to be nice, and NOT reason from the particular here to the assumptionm that just because some very stupid people on this thread are opposed to faith schools, then everyone who is opposed to faith schools is very stupid.

Do you understand now, JoTheHot?

I think you've hit the nail on the head - the faith schools that people like seeker or Steve want to access for their children are never the poor, under-subscribed ones, where they could indeed easily get a place. Like Groucho Marx, they are never interested in joining any club that would actually have them as a member.

Obviously if a faith school is underscribed, they want bums on seats so they will take just about anyone. Though, in some cases, the school actually moves to where their client base is more likely to be. I doubt that Seeker or Steve want access to any faith schools though.

What this is really about is that they want their child to go to a top-performing school - and why shouldn't they?

I think that sofia upthread was complaining that she was excluded from all the local schools in the area where she lived, regardless of their quality.

BB - surely the best way to learn about other faiths though is to mix with them and get to know them in person, rather than exclude them and 'learn' about them from books and other secondary sources.

I went to a Quaker school and we had a very wide variety of faiths, particularly when the boarding department was still open, Nigerian animists, HK Confucianists, Hindus, Buddhists - it made for a very rounded experience and we really did learn a lot about other faiths and a lot more than we would have from any textbook.

b&b - people don't usually set up their own schools not because they are "too lazy", but because they are too busy earning a living.

WavingLeaves - this post does you no credit at all:

"Well, I think it's fairly clear that dogma (religious or not) and the belief that you as a collective are RIGHT, is a dangerous force. Self-belief combined with tribalism leads people to do unspeakable things. Believing that god is on your side just makes it worse. "

That whole statement is totally evidence-free - what about all the mass murderers who argued against religion, then?

This thread is certainly proof, though, that " dogma (religious or not) and the belief that you as a collective are RIGHT, is a dangerous force" .

WavinglEaves - so how come religious people have not been 'too busy' to set up schools over the centuries then??

B&B - I think a lot, of those commenting here don't have an issue with faith schools per se, they have issues, as I do, with state funded discrimination and segregation.

IamSteve - she was referring to Stalin, who (according to some historians) was responsible for the deaths of 200 million Russians, and others, and who was vehemently atheistic.

Generally (perhaps with a few high profile school exceptions) the only admissions criteria for a faith school is that you practise that faith and demonstrate this by attending church. No other hoops to jump, no having to live in a certain area, or be a certain gender, or perform in the 11+

I think it is the adequate demonstation of the faith that is the hoop that many families are unable to jump. Even those who are subscribers to the particular faith. How do you explain such small percentages of of lower ability children (on intake) at some of the higher achieving faith secondary schools?

sammypaws - the kids at my dcs' school mostly have family members from other faiths, they do a lot of joint work with the other primary down the road that is non-denominational, they visit other schools etc. Plus they live every day in a Christian country despite not being Christian - they could hardly fail to be aware of other faiths unless they covered their eyes and stuck fingers in their ears all year round. Maybe it is more essential for C of E schools to take a mix, because they may not come across people from other faiths otherwise. (Although these days, unless you live in a very white ghetto, I'd guess most kids know people from many different faiths out of school anyway.)

My point was that learning about your own faith is not at all the same as learning to disrespect or ignore other people's faiths, as some here seem to imagine.

"This thread is certainly proof, though, that " dogma (religious or not) and the belief that you as a collective are RIGHT, is a dangerous force""

So arguing against state-funded segregation and discrimination is a dangerous force?

B&B, I come across as unpleasant? Read back through your posts and you'll see that you have been getting personal and throwing insults at me from the beginning, yet I have not to you. As for slow witted, I refer to my previous comment.

"Militant atheists in other countries have abolished freedom of religion and indeed persecuted people for their faith - the tenor of your posts does not give me total confidence that given free rein, this would not be your preferred course of action, either."

Thank you Abs, I clicked on to that later (must be my slow wittedness as B&B attests to). Yes as mentioned after, Stalin was an atheist, but not driven to his actions by any lack of belief. There is no doctrine for atheism, it is simply a lack of belief... I suppose it could be argued that in his case it counted somewhere within his hatred but then Trotski and the others were atheist too, and he had them murdered for power not for anything to do with religion.