Why do faith schools dominate the league tables?

[benetint]

I looked at the league tables for primary schools in my area (nottingham) and I was surprised to see the top few were not schools in affluent areas bur were all catholic schools. Many of them are actually in quite deprived areas. So what is it catholic schools are doing to get such excellent results? Is it that they can be more selective about who they take? Are they just exam factories? Ate they stricter with their kids? Or are they just better in general than secular states?

Where did I say that 2 parent families are better? or that they are 2 parent families for the 'right' reason?

I was just showing why the FSM argument is very weak.

Twisting things to try and back up your own case does you no favours at all.

My problem is not in having faith schools, or perhaps even in having them funded by the State (I'm still up in the air about this). My problem is that faith is a condition of entry to those State funded schools and that discriminates against my child. I don't see that it's any different than having a school that says we don't let black people in simply because they are black. But we have provided a perfectly good school down the street for those black people. It's

Actually I was talking only about the proportionally more moderate faiths that are prevalent in Western Europe, if I were to lump all religions together in order to rant about the harm unquestioning belief is capable of then there's plenty of other aspects I could have included, from female genital mutilation, honour killings, terrorism, etc... to mass oppression, mass genocide in the name of , denial of education and other rights, torture, warmongering, celibacy resulting in child molestation which is dealt with "internally" so no criminal prosecutions are brought, stun-less animal slaughter, need I go on.

With regards to the two parent families, I didn't intend to twist things to back up my own case but can see how it came across that way, I merely misinterpreted your meaning.

How do Humanists interfere with your life? In that they argue against the interference by religion in theirs.

This Q&A with Hitchens makes the point I feel:

"I don't see that it's any different than having a school that says we don't let black people in simply because they are black. But we have provided a perfectly good school down the street for those black people."

I agree. It's just so gob-smackingly wrong. And the 'other school' may not even be just down the street, it may be on the other side of town where your child knows no one, and is expensive and difficult to get to.

Well, for one you wish to deny my child a place at a state faith school!

I believe that every child has the right to a good education. The only way that we can achieve this is by doing our best to ensure that all schools are 'destination schools'. It does not mean that we have to break down what is already working.

I understand that, for some who are against faith schools in any guise, they would have a problem with this, but for many it is not a matter of wishing to attend a faith school, it is about wanting their children to attend a good school.

Faith schools are legal, wanted and popular just because you don't like the idea of them (for whatever reason) does not mean that they do not have a place in our educational system.

Yes WavingLeaves, it's similar to what Dawkins points out also, even if you didn't go on ethnicity you could still label children as "Conservative children" or "Labour Children", based on their parents political beliefs... and then we could send them to separate schools for that too. But instead we thankfully allow them to make their own minds up (mostly, although there is often influence of course). Why can't we do the same with religion, it's a shame we don't just educate all children about all faiths, show them the evidence and let them decide for themselves.

My son could not attend our most local school because he is male.

My daughter would not get into a Grammar school because she is not bright enough.

Is this like excluding a child becasue of their colour too? Are you campaigning against these schools?

"Well, for one you wish to deny my child a place at a state faith school!"

Faith schools do educate about all faiths though!

I am bowing out now as have things to do, but this has made for interesting reading.

Naughtiestgirl in the school.

If you wish to send your child to a faith school that is entirely you own choice. What I, and quite a few others, object to is its state funding and discriminatory practices. If you want a religious education for your child then you should pay for it.

@TheNaughtiestGirl

No, we're a secular organisation so it's beyond our remit. You could apply the same argument as to why we don't fight against speciesism and the answer would be that there are others who do that, we can't be an everything. But that doesn't mean I agree with any kind of discrimination, however... I do not know enough about one gender schools or the requirements of such grammar schools to be able to say anything, other than I'm very against class-ist elitism so hope there is no hint of that with regards to the grammar school.

"Faith schools do educate about all faiths though!"

@Iamsteve this is completely incorrect for catholic schools certainly. All catholic schools follow the national curriculum in RE. All catholic schools follow the national curriculum in science. No catholic school teaches creationism, catholics do not believe in creationism, they accept the theory of evolution in exactly the same way as the scientific community does - it is a theory since nobody was around 6billion years ago but there has been no other solution put forward that fits the significant amount of known facts. Evolution is about as proved as a theory can be, really. And catholics completely accept that - and have done for all my (sadly quite long now) life.

Sorry, do have to go, but have to comment on that last point Iamsteve

• can you show me any UK school which teaches creationism as a science? I know you can't but would be interested to see you try.

Also, when was the last time you sat in on an RE class in a faith school? I can assure you that even my yr 2 child has had many lessons on (this term) Judaism and Islam.

Catholics (for example) are taxpayers too. I pay in my taxes for at least two local schools that, for one reason or another my children will be denied entry to.

Yes, naughtiest girl, you might pay taxes, but like the rest of us you cannot pick and choose how they are spent.

@TheNaughtiestGirlsInSchool Sure, here is an instance that it happens: www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/15/free-schools-creationism-intelligent-design though it is far more common in America.

@Mondas I'm afraid you've fallen for the semantics issue that many do. Evolution is fact, it's still called theory just like how gravity is called a theory but it is no longer just a theory. I know you're not arguing against evolution but just in case you're unaware of the theory differences: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory#Theory

And yes I was talking about creationist schools not catholic schools on that matter, sorry for the confusion.

Yes,another voice here to comment on how other religions and science are taught in faith schools - in my dd's first week at primary school eg aged 3, she took part in activities celebrating both her own religious festival that happened to be happening that week AND that of another faith which was also happening that week. All through school, they have continued to learn openly and positively about all faiths.

In science, evolution is assumed and taught - show me a 5 year old who is NOT taught about dinosaurs etc! I am not aware of any faith school that teaches creationism in the UK.

@bread there might be some. Weird academies run by shady organisations, for example. It wouldn't surprise me. But the issue there is with who we allow to run our schools not with faith schools per se.

naughtiest, no one is suggesting that your child should be denied a place at a state faith school. I would just like my child to be equally entitled to that same place and right now he is not because of my lack of faith.

B & B - but do any children from the other faith celebrated actually attend the school?

@IamSteve I have fallen for nothing, I am not 'unaware' of anything in this area (although clearly either you are or you are just happy making things up). Evolution and gravity are both theories. There are many other theories too. Calling things what they are - theories - isn't to insult them. It's a recognition of humanity's wonderful journey over the millennia in enhancing its knowledge of first of all the world and now the universe through the use of the scientific method and, quite often, maths. Genuine scientists don't have a problem at all with using the correct technical term for theories. Using the correct terms for things is really important. It's just people who actually have made science some kind of black magic voodoo thing who object to using the term theory, partly because they don't understand it and partly because they don't understand science.

"My son could not attend our most local school because he is male.

My daughter would not get into a Grammar school because she is not bright enough.

Is this like excluding a child becasue of their colour too? Are you campaigning against these schools?"

Well tbh I think single sex schools are an anachronism, and I would be very annoyed if I had a child of each sex and had to do two different school runs just because of that... and yes I think you could argue that it's discriminatory, especially if the local girls school was better than the local boys school, for example.

Grammar schools are a bit of a different issue, I suppose you could argue that they are not AS discriminatory since they discriminate on merit rather than accident of birth. But, there are also complex issues involved as to class, fairness etc. I'd say I'm on the fence about this one personally as I don't know enough about how they work.

Steve, according to you, religion:

1. hinders scientific progress
2. is against equality of race and gender
3. forces terminally ill people to suffer against their will by opposing assisted dying
4. decides for women what they can and can't do with their own bodies

Note that this is not qualified by stating which religion let alone which religious individuals you are referring to,this is just all 'religion' that is responsible for things you don't like. (Ignoring the obvious point that the vast majority of people - religious or otherwise - disagree with you as to the rightness of point 3.)

Now if I claimed that atheists were intolerant, mass murderers, who sent millions to their deaths in gulags as a result of their lack of religion, you'd rightly think i was a complete loon, and this was just one bunch of atheists in one specific historical situation.

Yet you see nothing wrong in some kind of blanket statement about 'religion' as if all religions were the same, or all religious people responsible for anything that you personally dislike that has ever been done in the name of religion.

You are actually a great advert, for religion, Steve. If the world without a deity relies on man's intelligence alone, you should send millions running in fear to the warm embrace of religion.

sammypaws - no, 100% of those at my dcs' primary are genuinely of the faith - it's not especially academic and we didn't choose it for that reason (we actually moved from next door to the best primary in our old borough to a worse school, academically,that met our faith criteria), so I don't think it attracts lots of people other than those who choose it for faith reasons.

But a number of kids at the school - a half? a third? have parents and families from other faiths. All faiths are accorded respect and learnt about.

"Now if I claimed that atheists were intolerant, mass murderers, who sent millions to their deaths in gulags as a result of their lack of religion, you'd rightly think i was a complete loon, and this was just one bunch of atheists in one specific historical situation."

Not sure what you mean here, are you talking about Hitler when you say 'one historical situation'?