I send my child to private school because....?

[jabed]

Well, I don?t actually, I just work in one. But it seems to be a constant source of questioning on MN and given the current news articles (I have been reading the DM and Tory graph online) about how many of our left wing leaders hypocritically claim to be egalitarian and socialist whilst buying education for their children , or have had education paid for by their own parents. I just wondered, what is it we expect from education, and why is it some of us are willing to pay for whatever that is and how they see that as worthy of their money.

There you go. :)

you are as offensive as anyone else on MN

You mean I don?t run with the herd and so my views are unwelcome to some?

I try not to be personally offensive although I am only human.

I have never said ?I am glad you are not my doctor/lawyer/ teacher/ milkman/ undermaid" or anything similar. I have never said "I don?t think someone like you should be a milkman/ postman /under maid /lawyer/ doctor / teacher. I wouldn?t want you delivering my milk/ making my bed/ bringing my post/ defending me or advising me legally/ teaching my child" .....

I do not know any of the posters in RL to be able to say that and can?t judge them from behind a type face. However, many feel they can so judge me and say all and any of the above to me.

Metabilis3 - someone else who reads Antonia Forest! No, I wouldn't send my daughter to Kingscote, but it was conceived in the mid-1940s and I doubt it any such school could flourish now. I doubt Rugby school reflects Tom Brown's Schooldays any more

"I do wonder if jabed's DS speaks RP anywhere other than at home

He speaks RP all the time, as do our friends and the children of our friends. Its the social circle we move in."

I'm sure I read somewhere that only about 2% of the population speak RP- are you really saying that your social circle is restricted to that 2%? apart from anything else, no Scots? No Irish? No non English friends at all?

Jabed I do 'understand RP', my point was that the accent I hear from privately or public school educated children is not it. Do you see?

Actually RP was traditionally the model adopted by learners of English as a Foreign Language and is the one area where it is still regarded as desirable linguistically.

I would also be interested to see examples of 'disgusting crap' on this thread apart from the poster who doesn't wish her children to associate with children with SN.

Are people perhaps using "RP" and "BBC" and "Standard English" as synonyms?

I think most parents want the same in state and private schools and as i said above state parents move and do all sorts to get education with similar children and who are not disruptive. They are just as good (or bad depending on your view point) as private ones.

I probably was the one mentioning accent and it is important. I havwe 3 children at graduate stage. Increasingly interviews are by telephone first or they want to video footage of you first and gosh I am 90% certain in many cases that is to vet you by accent/class as well as the quality of the language that you use of course and your brains so by all means live in a fool's paradise thinking your you was and haitch don't count but they do to plenty of the employers that matter. It is accent more than gender which holds many women back in many careers and it is easily solvable.

I don't really care what we call it (and anyone who knows who I am - I don't want it disclosed here - can watch countless videos on line of me and assess my fairly mid range accent which does not sound like the Queen circa 1950). If we do not want to call it received pronunciation's modern equivalent was can all it reasonably unaccented English or something.

The things to seek to ensure teenagers don't do when talking to people who matter (they can change language/slang etc as much as they like when talking to friends) include dropping Ts, innit, all the regional slang, short As perhaps.. and this is not an encitement for someone to go on line, listen to me and pick how I speak apart of course.. laughing as I type...

Agree absolutely with the speaking clearly and being easy to understand and grammatical and not dropping ts and hs and all the rest. And I agree that this might mean adapting particularly strong regional accents on occasion. That's just common sense. But the RP thing is just silly.

Interestingly, the emphasis on speaking and listening which so many object to in state primary schools is intended, among other things, to address the issue of clarity and comprehensibility. As well as to give children the confidence to speak up in public. Odd that this is considered a key benefit of private education, but a waste of time in state ones. Maybe because it is something that could only possibly benefit the Officer Class?

Honestly?

We chose private because she seemed to get on well at assessment day and loved the school, it has a very good reputation.
I am in the process of re thinking it all tbh. It is quite snobby in her year esp and there was some v low level bullying she experienced at the end of last term although it was dealt with I am waiting to see how things go next term. I know this can happen at any school but i am not completely happy with the rarified environment although the education seems to be of a good standard. I don't know anymore I really don't

Xenia - you was is a grammar point not an accent. And on another thread you yourself used 'haitch' although you persist in damning it in others (maybe a certain sensitivity to what you perceive as your own failing?).

You are probably right that some employers will pick on grounds of accent, though I'd guess they're the same ones who would weed out people on grounds of class, race, religion etc =- so accent is likely to be the least of your 'problems' if you really wish to work for an organisation like that, as trying to disguise your race is impossible and not mant people would want thehassle of having to disguise their class or religious background every day for any job. Personally, an employer that missed the best people because of those sort of prejudices isn't the kind of place I would wish to work (or wish my children to work) anyway.

Still no response to my previous point, though. Unless you are suggesting serious elocution lessons a la Eliza Dolittle, then children will just continue to speak in the accent of their parents NOT their schools. If you really believe that accent is such a crucial factor in getting jobs (which i don't for a minute - I think you are still back in your paranoid 1950s world here), then surely you're better sending them to a state school and spending the cash on top-notch elocution lessons?

Agree with mrz re RP, BTW - neither of my parents were born in the UK but I teach English as a Foreign Language and my students often remark on my perfect RP - it is the mark of a non-native speaker, really.

Bread I regularly do interviews and class, colour, creed etc dont come into it. Education and Accents do.
I dont mean comp vs fee paying, that would genuinely make little difference in my company. However your class of degree and the type of degree do make a difference.
I work with people from all walks of life and there are lots of regional accents/Non BBC accents. However there are very few 'rough' accents iyswim.
For me its common sense and also mainly informed by the home. I dont think well spoken is the preserve of any type of school

There are clearly many acceptable accents. The only things of interest are whether they are easily comprehensible and grammatically accurate, beyond that, a bit of variety makes life more interesting - otherwise there would be an awful lot of p*ssed off Americans and Australians unable to get jobs in this country, because they sound too American or Australian.... Or is it OK to sound American, but not OK to sound like you might originate from Birmingham or Yorkshire?!

The accent thing is a bit of a red herring and needs unpicking.

1)Very posh friend who drawls would struggle to get a customer facing role because she's so difficult to understand.

2)DD1 privately educated, correct grammar, but quite 'London' also says 'f' for 'th'. Would struggle to get a job at Sotheby's or reading the news but has a pleasantly modulated voice and is is easy to understand.

1 should prob. have had elocution lessons, certainly couldn't work as a teacher which was an early ambition. As it is she is highly successful in her field and her voice hasn't held her back.

2 modifies her speaking voice- I sat in at interview for VI Form and was impressed at how clearly she spoke without changing much iyswim.

Talking 'posh' isn't necessary; being easily understood is essential.

Maybe we should subtitle Hollywood movies - or even better, dub over the real voices with a bit of RP.

mindosa has it right and as it is.

(Not quite sure how I could use "haitch" on another thread as one says it, not writes it, and I certanily don't say haitch. I use it as an example of what can put some people off in business when hearing others use it.)

Other ones are dropping ts and saying you was.

I went down the road rather than I wen down the road.

Being able to be understood is the key to it. Countless teenagers in all schools giggle, say you know and mumble in all educational sectors and I think all schools should work harder at ensuring they can speak properly. I think debating and going to other schools for debates and public speaking and being school plays and learning poetry to recite it all help children although of course many are just shy and teenage boys will always giggle even if they are in court up on a charge and even if they don't want to.

There is a lovely website which I now forget which has recorded loads of dying out English regional accents which is interesting.

I dont agree with Xenia re employers and accents. I consider I speak normally; no accent, but friends think I sound like a posh version of Princess Ann! It does initially make some people wary off you. My husband who sounds like a male version finds the same thing. We frequently get comments like "you're just like me but when i first met/heard you I thought you'd be really stuck up!" Of course I am aware that some like it my husband probably got his job because of it his boss thinks the clients like it and they probably do.
If I was an employer I would of course want clear pronunciation and be interested in how articulate someone is, but equally important how extensive their vocabulary is, many people I meet seem to have a very limited vocabulary hardly able to string a coherent sentence this spills over into terrible writing skills. So although I too hate "like" "you know" if I was talking on the telephone to a prospective employee this is what I'd be looking for.

Of course, life is cruel, and even successful people in positions of public prominence get laughed at for their speech defects.

Would anyone like to speak like Boris Johnson?

I have met people who regard a Northern accent qs a speech impediment........

John O'Farrell has written an interesting piece about choosing state education over private, in yesterday's Guardian if anyone is interested.

John O'Farrell Couldn't have put it better myself.

Was just about to post that link myself!

Personally, I wouldn't wish to work for a company or do business with one where a working class accent rendered one unemployable - just sounds like old-fashioned snobbishness, sorry.

Re 'correct' grammar - as someone who teaches the language to foreigners, one of the first thing to be aware of is that - unlike French, say, which has tried to render the languge static - in English there are no 'official' grammar bodies that can judge what 'correct' grammar is. If someone from the east end says 'I done that' - it is not grammatically 'wrong', it is just correct in their variant of English. It is no more 'wrong' than an american saying ''I gotten' - these are just local variants and as such stating that they are more or less wrong than any other variant is a value judgement that reflects on the values of the judger but not on the English of the speaker. Obviously, if a speaker invented their own unique language eg said 'I didied' that would be 'wrong' as it fails for the purposes of communication.

But all this attitude towards working class/regional accents and grammar reveals are old-fashioned snobbery - not terribly attractive and ABSOLUTELY the very last attitude I would wish to bring my children up with.

Oh and Xenia - your conveniently short memory forgets that you referred to people 'dropping their haitches' - so YOUR (non-ironical) use of haitch not aitch. Personally, I don't care which one you use, but if you're going to criticise others for using 'haitch' you deserve to be criticised for utter hypocrisy. And yes, I will find the post to prove this if you make me - but would rather not waste any more time on this - just fess up and stop throwing stones at glass houses, please.

should be 'from glass houses', thinking about it...

I certainly don't judge people on their accents - as stated, I have students with every variant from plummy to v working class accents (currently teaching native English speakers, not foreigners) - their abilities at English and overall intelligence have absolutely no relationship to their accents.

Only a very short-sighted, snobbish and inefficient employer would discriminate on those grounds.