I send my child to private school because....?

[jabed]

Well, I don?t actually, I just work in one. But it seems to be a constant source of questioning on MN and given the current news articles (I have been reading the DM and Tory graph online) about how many of our left wing leaders hypocritically claim to be egalitarian and socialist whilst buying education for their children , or have had education paid for by their own parents. I just wondered, what is it we expect from education, and why is it some of us are willing to pay for whatever that is and how they see that as worthy of their money.

There you go. :)

rabbit an interesting point of view you are right at the top independent schools the children are living in a world of endless opportunities and privilege the sky is the limit. Although we've spent over a decade in independent ed it wasn't until my DS moved to his senior school that the reality of how far removed from anything the state sector offers his school is. Although I can see it from your point of view I like what it offers my DS I like the variety breadth and depth of the education the quality of what is on offer and most importantly I can see that he not only likes it but is thriving in this environment.

I never think about joining the elite or be associated with any other social label.
I want my DC to learn as much as possible - the more the better.There is no such thing as useless knowledge to me. If a school teaches them more subjects in more breadth, it is a much better school for me. I really sincerely do not care about "snobbery", "elitism" and whatever else private schools supposed produce or be about. I take each person individually on their merits. I dont think schools fundamentally change anybody's personality, it comes from genes and family.

My DS 's personality hasn't changed since moving to his senior school but he does seem to feel freer to be the person he really is and he seems to be more confident to pursue his own rather niche interest! At prep unable to conform to the "norm" he was not happy.

An interesting perspective Rabbitstew. When we had the choice to send our DCs to independent school at someone else's expense (my employer's), the normal school of choice was the school all the diplomat children went to.

One of the comments which helped us make the decision to send DCs to the local school at the bottom of the road came from a colleague who had grown up in the diplobrat circuit:

'All too often the kids start with expensive hobbies then later these turn into expensive habits'

I have never regretted that decision. As a result all 3 DCs got something which money cant buy - a facility for languages. For their primary years all three were bilingual.

Jabed is in a cosy position so can afford to say 'I certainly do not give homework every day or every week even....' as he HE. Lucky you

I was not speaking as a parent there; I was speaking as a teacher. I do not give homework at school. The school policy is to give prep weekly but I get round that with a clear departmental policy that I set homework when necessary and that the "ongoing homework" for all students is to organise their notes, read through them and revise them and read further in the text books etc. Many students will not do this (no worries). Those who feel they want to do it can (and that helps them). But I never set a formal ?do this" type homework unlessI am clearly focussing on something that needs the practice. I t doesn?t work anyway. All you are left with is days of chasing work and days of putting pupils in detention for failure to complete. A complete waste of time and energy, not to mention the time spent marking.

My pupils know I use a monthly test system and that concentrates their minds somewhat. My results are some of the best in the school so it doesnt seem to harm them that way.

My own DS has no "homework" at all. As far as I and my DW are concerned he is a child, he has to have time to be a child. There are more important things than living to do homework.

I agree with you totally for once jabed. A lot of homework is completely unnecessary- especially when the child is young.

Happygardening and pianomama - I know you aren't consciously trying to join an elite by sending your children to public schools. However, the next generation in your families will not, if they also attend these schools, be the first to do so, and it's amazing how quickly a reasonable understanding of privilege can become eroded to a sense of entitlement in all but the most saintly of people. There is also a difference between genuinely understanding how unfair a share of resources you are having thrown at you for your education and there is paying lip service to the fact. We all tend to pay lip service to how privileged we are, not just those at the very top of the tree (although they do have even bigger lips!!!...).

pianomama - I also take each person on their merits. I like people from all walks of life. I don't expect the whole world to share my views, but I do expect people to listen to each other and to other perspectives and take them into consideration when they make their choices in life. Disagreement doesn't have to be toxic - better to listen, consider and then disagree than to tell other people to shut up and mind their own business, particularly when their business is ultimately affected by ours!

Rabbit - better to listen, consider and then disagree than to tell other people to shut up and mind their own business - what was that about?

My way of saying I like you and happygardening because you listen, consider and then disagree with me!...

Not everyone is willing to listen - too many people try to shut conversations down by accusing others of jealousy, or telling them to mind their own business, imo.

Does it not depend on how you view difference? Does it matter if some people have more of something than others? Does it matter I was born reasonably pretty rather than pug ugly or of a happy nature or quite bright? Should be we changing genes to ensure all children are clones?

We have clogs to clogs in 3 generations fairly often here. People move up and down. Some are lazy, some unlucky. I chose to work very hard and picked a fairly well paid career so don't do too badly and can afford £10k school fees a year (most are abotu £10k - £12k even schools in top 3 like NLCS, ignore the £30k mentioned as that is boarding).

Plenty of the children of the rich are lazy or thick or have problems which mean they will not remain rich. Even in the Victorian age impoverished land owners had to seek rich industrialists in marriage to keep estates going. People have always moved up and down.

My post earlier summarised my views:

1. Private school pupils do better. They are 8% of children but 73% of judges, huge numbers in teh cabinet, senior board posts, leading lawyers, accountants and the like. As as a woman choosing a career which means you can pay school fees is just about the best thing you can do for your children,. The £1m or whatever it is I will have spent on my five from age 3 - 22+ (including university fees) is the best money I have spent.

1. 50% of Olympians went to private schools - much better sport.

1. Music - very important for us with 3 children with music scholarships, very into church choral music etc - you get more of that and better at private schools.

1. Environment - I like to go to school events where there are fields and lakes and parents are like me so I have things in common with them (although not all of them are) who are quite clever, hard working, high achieving, powerful, makes social events easier. Labour spent a lot on state school buildings but still on the whole private schools are better.

1. I wanted single sex academic education from age 5 in a school where most children are not bright enough to get in and the whole class works at a high level in schools in the top 20 or so in the UK - NLCS, Habs etc.

1. I wanted to buy my children a peer group who all do well and have high aspirations so they cannot follow little Joan who wants to work in a call centre or beauty salon because 100% of their cohort will go to top universities and will be aiming to fly planes, be doctors, lawyers, business leaders (using examples of my daughters' friends here) and I wanted my children not to be on mumsnet in 15 years' time complaining about not being able to afford organic food or a nanny or a nice house or the credit crunch - I want them to have easier lives financially if that be their choice and to be in a group of girls where people do make good financial choices in terms of career (and my girls earn about £50k - £60k in their mid 20s so that bit has worked too so far... although of course I would also be happy if they chose different paths, wanted to be contemplative nuns or follow their hobbies, entirely up to them but at least they have choices).

1. I was going to add accent and confidence but that is the least of what I bough and buy although it is part of it and not all children at local private schools do speak that well around here.

1. Broad ranging wide education not limited to exam passing, education for its own sake, a love of learning, smaller classes, feeling valued and very much wanted an academic environment where everyone knows they are lucky to be there and their parents worked hard to get them there and parents are consumers who can ensure classes are not subject to low levevl disruption and anyone doing that disruption will be out on their ear much faster than in a state schools. Useless teachers can more easily be sacked too.

1. Eccentricity, risk taking, unusualness - hard to explain but you can get that kind of variety in the private sector.

10. Because I can - i decided in my teens to earn reasonable amount of money, buy an island (which I did in 2005) large house, nice large family. School fees are expensive but not overly so for me. I could pay double what they now are and be okay

I do agree we cannot all be the same. I was once quite poor but now things are different. when I had no money I aspired to be financially secure and its not a bad thng. I wouldn't know how to be a snob even if I tried. But I do have high aspirations for my children.
I don't do dependency very well, others like the nanny STATE and trust the state education thats fine too. To each his own.
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I agree. I also think that education is the best investment for DC.
Leave them money and properties - no guarantee they won't lose it, mis-use it etc. Educate them well - and it's theirs for life, nobody can take it away from them. What they do with it - up to them.

Xenia I do sort of agree with you (thats two days in a row thats a record) but every child is entitled to a good education all round education delivered by committed and competent teachers just as every child is entitled to access to good health care. At the beginning of this thread private health care earlier mentioned but we are lucky in the UK the health care that children receive on the NHS is a million times better than that offered in the private sector who only want to cherry pick the easy cases. One only has to look at the recent programme on GOS to see how good the NHS is. State education should also be of a high standard but for some reason I am unable to explain it this does not always seem to be the case.

Oh that makes me smile.... Argue, debate, argue, debate..then... Up pops Xenia to say 'it's exactly as I said it was yesterday and BY THE WAY I'VE STILL GOT AN ISLAND'.

I'm not sure owning an island is something to boast about even if it is sun sea and palm trees and glorious exclusivity. A couple of our friends own islands although don't ram it down your throat at every turn they seem to spend little time on them preferring to go off to other places instead.

Xenia, I sort of agree too. However, all the things you suggest aren't true for everybody.
My dd will get a far better musical education, just because of our position and she doesn't have to attend a private school for this.
Also if 50% of Olympians went private obviously 50% didn't, thats not better.
It is only your opinion that Judges, cabinet members and Lawyers are better.
I think if you want this type of education for your dcs its better for you, but not better for others.
I mostly agree with your number 6. Not many of dds friends at her state school wanted to be opera singers, but we were very lucky and the children were encouraging and supportive.
I also agree with accent and good speech, but there again there are classes for this and exams that dc could take, whichever school they attend.
So for all the things you buy, they are mostly important. However, there is nothing you mention that anyone else couldn't achieve without attending a private school. Although admittedly it would still cost money, but a few k less.

I was state school educated, but find it hard to see how I could have done "better" with a private education - I got my law degree from Oxford and a career in a City law firm. Maybe if I'd been privately educated, I would have stuck at it for longer than the few years I did, rather than finding it a disappointing waste of my intelligence and overpaid (I should have gone to the bar - I would have been better suited to it). Or maybe I would have done the same thing and had the same reaction at the end of the day? But either way, I don't think Xenia's point 1. was of much relevance in my case. As for her other points:

1. I was always good at sport, particularly tennis, netball and swimming, but it wasn't a great passion of mine, so not interested in public school sporting facilities, I was happy to do it all for fun and the facilities were easily available to me. Not many people actually want to be Olympians and damage their bodies through over-training.
2. I played in various orchestras, travelled the world with them and received grade 8 distinction in 3 musical instruments - didn't feel state education held me back, there.
3. I have no problem with the social environment at my children's state school. I don't have lots in common with everyone, but don't really care about that - I don't feel the need to surround myself with people like me in order to be comfortable. There are some aspects of my personality I don't think are so very fantastic (other bits I'm very positive about) and I view other people in the same way - we are none of us perfect and are all the more interesting for our differences.
4. I actually had a single sex education at secondary level. I don't think I would have suffered for it not being single sex. I think my dbs disliked by educated in single sex schools (but then they had square peg personalities, generally!).
5. I didn't need peers doing well to encourage me to always do my best and make my own choices in life. Some of my peers went on to be doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, editors, musicians, entrepreneurs, and some went on to work in call centres, tattoo parlours and shops. I'm still in touch with most of them.
6. It did irritate me at primary school that I was accused of being posh, but I didn't ever change the way I spoke and people stopped commenting on it as I got older.
7. I got an excellent state education, myself, not an exam factory, so don't recognise Xenia's point 8 as a general criticism of all state education.
8. As a family of eccentric risk takers, I feel this is more related to family than education.

10. Because my parents didn't want to, having tried it for their older children and realised private education does not always equal superior education and opportunities. At the end of the day, there is more than one way of turning out a well rounded individual confident to make their own choices and mistakes in life and to take responsibility for them.

Again, Xenia makes statements with absolute conviction that she is right, despite having no real experience of state education - just opinion and prejudice based on hearsay.

That arrogance, confidence and certitude must be products of a private school education.

It would certainly explain the uncompromising views of the majority of our politicians.

I suppose anybody spending £1 million on their dcs education would feel the need to justify their decision. It doesn't make them right. Xenia made her decision based on what she thought was right for her dcs and thats her right. If she is prejudiced or ill informed no amount of debate, reasoning or other peoples experience will influence her at all, as this is the only way she has of holding herself up. I think her confident exterior hides an insecure person which is evident by the need for her to look good and associate with parents from her dcs school whom she feels on the same level as. I suppose we all have sides to our personality which others find irritating and at odds with the majority of society. However, putting others down to make oneself look and feel better is pitiful. I don't have an Island by the way, although used to dream of having Kirrin Island as a child. I was a tom boy like my role model George. (Famous five) for the younger people here.

You're right morethan, of course.
It's just a bit annoying that, without the benefit of debating societies and public speaking lessons, I am able to see both sides of this argument. I understand and accept that there are advantages to a private education (sport, music, self-esteem, networking, etc) although I firmly disagree in inequalities in educational opportunity.

However, as a primary school teacher, I can assure the likes of Xenia that we do offer the children a broad curriculum; we have a thriving orchestra; we have forest school, to encourage children to experience the environment and take risks; we play competitive football, tag rugby, netball and hockey and take part in various athletics championships. We also teach the children how to read and learn time tables by rote!

I just wish that people who bang on about the private system would realise that their incessant 'private is better than state' allegations are bloody soul destroying. I work hard to give my pupils a rounded education on a shoestring budget that is falling year by year, and most of my pupils have parents who could never, ever afford to choose to send their children to private school.

flexibeck my DS was in charming small village primary school they indentified him as an outstanding mathematician; IQ 154 and I was told quite firmly by the governors and head master that the school had neither the time nor the recourses to help him! Basically I should address this in his own time and pay for it. I don't make say that prep schools are necessarily all they're cracked up to be but at least they addressed the maths problem.

Happy, I understand what you are saying and am glad your ds was helped. However, your problem was with the school not the state system. I too was let down, with g&t register issues, but for our experiences there are schools in the state system that would have sorted our issues. My friends ds at dds old primary was very gifted at Maths. He was supported extended upwards and sideways. How can you be sure that every prep school would have addressed your issues.

I think the comparison of state education and NHS is an interesting one. Why, given its monolithic state (beaurocracy, inability to complete a single major project, obsession with random targets), is the NHS so good?

By comparison why do schools come in for so much criticism?

I think the answer is that whereas our politicians use the NHS and therefore see it as consumers, they dont use state education. They had privilege bought for them and, just like Xenia, they buy privilege for their own children.

Politicians look at state education from outside, they dont see it as consumers. They try to impose their own very narrow, minority experience of education onto the majority.

Gove, for example, is a scholarship boy, he appears to be attempting to recreate what he perceives to be a golden age of education (ie from when he was a lad). He wants to create more people like him, he wants clever boys and girls to have their cleverness recognised.

What Gove is failing to recognise is that state education is for everyone, the clever children, the practical ones, the engaged, the uninterested. They all need to be educated to achieve their potential, whatever that potential is.

By hiding away from being consumers of state education, our politicians know nothing of this.

Some state schools do take the lazy option of suggesting a child's parents look for a private school to cater for their child's needs, though, morethan - you can hardly blame the parents for doing as told and looking for scholarships and bursaries in the private sector, if state schools are telling them that this is their only or best option.