The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Why are you not more aspirational, Jabed?

If you went to a secondary modern and then made it on to Oxbridge you must have had some very good teachers who instilled the belief in you that this was possible.

If the state system truly is as poor as you say, then surely it needs teachers like yourself to pull it up? Taking a job in an indie with small classes of well behaved pupils with good parental support is surely the easy option.

Apologies for focussing in on you, but I'm just interested in why someone with your background decided on the easy route rather than use your wealth of skills to help improve the state sector.

I think the answer to that involves words like 'subhuman' and 'scum' idontthinkso. State schools now are full of biting kicking brats and so on, and it's best to steer clear if you can. I remember from another thread. However Jabed said he had gone, so you probably won't get an answer to that very pertinent question!

Just noticed the post about some indies and the maths 1st class degree point. This does not surprise me, as my DC are a leading indie, (and my DC are by no means the brightest there!) - there are some extremely bright children, but my own dc were well past maths gcse level by 13, so by the time they doA levels, only the very best mathematicians will be able to challenge the students sufficiently.

A friend of mine teaches maths in a reasonably well known independent school and her degree is in Physics (not maths) and she got a second. I don't doubt she's a very good teacher though. Some places may try and be choosy, but in the end they will take the best applicants they get whatever their qualifications.

I will try to answer your questions Idontthinksothanks. I feel its a shame that others would claim to answer for me whilst I have been working :(

Why are you not more aspirational, Jabed?

I am not sure what you mean by this. I have had a long career as a university professor. I have achieved my aspirations and personal goals I hope. Without going into too much detail I have done my research, taught the next generation and hopefully contributed something and had a reasonably successful academic career before retiring. At least I hope I have.

If you went to a secondary modern and then made it on to Oxbridge you must have had some very good teachers who instilled the belief in you that this was possible

Well, in fact, no they did not. They tried all they could sometimes to do the opposite. I passed the 11+ in the top 1% but we moved LA's and there was no available place at a grammar school so I was consigned to an education for which I was really not suited. I have discussed this with others on the ?grammar school " thread. I don?t really want to go over it again.

I got to the position I did mainly through pulling myself up by my boot straps and because of a hunger to succeed and to have an education. It had nothing to do with my schools.

If the state system truly is as poor as you say, then surely it needs teachers like yourself to pull it up?

Before I went into university lecturing I did do my part in a challenging state school. I did believe I might make that all important difference. I tried
(and failed). The main difficulty is that the majority of pupils in such schools do not want to learn. They have no interest. Mostly they want to destroy any attempt to teach them and others. In all my time there I cannot genuinely say I found one child who I could help - a child who had an ethos for the work or a hunger to get out. I seemed to be swimming against a constant tide.

That isn?t to say I could not teach or get results. I got very good results but they just were not interested in doing more or going further. I also found myself chided and ridiculed by other staff for "Being Oxbridge? I kept a very low profile in order to avoid this. In my experience there is a great deal of prejudice in state schools against "Oxbridge types".

Now when I worked in a university I found I did have more opportunity to help. At one time I was an admissions tutor and I did try to balance opportunity against achievement so that some of those from more deprived backgrounds got a chance. This was before any modern idea of affirmative action. I could not offer lower grades but I could accept such a student over another if they obtained the grades. So I hope I gave a leg up the ladder to a few young and educationally hungry young people who may not have had that chance otherwise.

Taking a job in an indie with small classes of well behaved pupils with good parental support is surely the easy option

I am at the end of my career. I am teaching part time and mostly A level.
I didn?t choose an independent school, they chose me. They were the only school who made an offer of a job. However, I do have great satisfaction from teaching these young people. They are keen, they have a work ethic, they thy have aspirations and they try. They hunger for their education and they are a pleasure to teach in my older years now. Even nice middle class "advantaged? children deserve good teachers surely? I think they do. They want what I can offer (good teaching and sound knowledge to pass exams); I gain from what they give me (motivation and enthusiasm to carry on).

Hope that helps explain my position.

I think the answer to that involves words like 'subhuman' and 'scum' idontthinkso. State schools now are full of biting kicking brats and so on, and it's best to steer clear if you can. I remember from another thread. However Jabed said he had gone, so you probably won't get an answer to that very pertinent question!

Gone to work. Yes.

Good job I am here to answer for myself. I have never and would never use the words you have chosen to attribute to me originalsteamingnit.

Thank you for answering my questions so thoroughly, Jabed. I respect your integrity.

It's sad that you found it so hard to find a way through to those difficult students. In the early days of my career I too found myself in such a school (in Hackney) and found that with perseverance and a determined belief in my own ability as a teacher, I quickly found that there were children who wanted to learn - in every class of difficult children, there are the poor unfortunate ones who still want to learn. I was one of these children, and thanks to a few determined and patient teachers, I was able to achieve the necessary to move on.

However, I will not judge you. You have clearly had a successful career and are now in a position where your particular teaching skills are being used to their full and this is how it should be. However, there are equally fantastic teachers who have the perseverance along with the excellent teaching skills who are making a difference in the state sector - I'm not sure place of study has a huge amount to do with this.

I have now made a career of working with under performing schools to bring about rapid improvement and see that it is possible, day in, day out, to make a difference, even in the toughest of situations.

It's a different type of job, I think. Teaching bright kids who want to learn is about teaching them the subject. Teaching kids from v disadvantaged backgrounds is different - in some ways as much social work as teaching. You may impart less subject knowledge, true, but education in its fullest sense is about much more than that - it's about enabling people to reach their potential. From that point of view, you may achieve far more as an educator in a challenging state school - whilst the qualifications achieved may be much less stellar, you can really turn a child's life around, give them a new sense of purpose and self-esteem that will last much longer than the memory of whatever facts you filled their heads with for an exam.

Children from supportive, well-off backgrounds may look like they're 'learning' more, jabed, but actually the other kids may really be learning more, in other ways. As an Oxbridge grad who went to a secondary modern, I reckon you'd be a great role model for the latter kids - learning how to learn, seeing that education can be for them as well - that's part of what you should be teaching them - not just the facts and figures required to get an A* in the exam.

I'd have thought with your background you might be more suited to teaching in a state school than most.

I say that as an Oxford grad who has been teaching those disadvantaged kids this last year - it makes my heart bleed to see how some of these kids have been ignored and beaten down at school - very different to my experience at grammar school. I doubt I've turned many lives around this year - i only see my lot for an hour a week each and I'm no miracle worker! but think i have helped some of them to see the extraordinary talents they have inside them. Lots of fabulous kids in the less glamorous bits of the state sector too. :)

bread - I think you're right that it's a different kind of job. I also think it's a shame that jabed felt that the children in the state school he refers to didn't want to learn. That is certainly not my experience- I have come across very few children who really do not want to learn. I have come across plenty with low self-esteem who have been led to believe that education beyond 16 is not "for people like us", and plenty who have got into the habit of hiding, say, poor literacy behind poor behaviour. The challenge of course is coaxing them out from behind the walls they've been building for years and convincing them that it IS worth their while to try. I would argue that someone who writes kids off as simply not wanting to learn is in the wrong school.

I am not going to say that I've turned anyone's life around, but I have had two emails in the last year from ex students (two different schools) letting me know what they're doing now (one is working for an independent film production company, one has just graduated from drama school) and both thanked me for being the person who made them believe they could do it.

I think its wrong to say that you require less subject knowledge to teach in a difficult school - an A level is an A level afterall. What you absolutely do need is a far more creative approach and a much greater raft of teaching styles and techniques. You also need to have that ability to break a subject down and to know where misunderstandings can occur. The best teachers in state schools are by far the best teachers full stop and it depends on these abilities not their class of degree or the classification of their university.

Teaching shoudn't just be about finding children with a spark and getting them to a* though, surely? It's about doing the best you can do for all of them.

EvilTwins - lovely story - nice to know you made a difference, isn't it? :)

However, I will not judge you

But you clearly are doing so - or at least being judgemental of something that you feel I have done that you disapprove of. Work in an independent school? Jump ship from the state sector tothe private one? Not be true to my SM "roots"? Whatever, I am not sure.

You have clearly had a successful career and are now in a position where your particular teaching skills are being used to their full and this is how it should be. However, there are equally fantastic teachers who have the perseverance along with the excellent teaching skills who are making a difference in the state sector

I work on the principle that there are more than enough people out there who feel they are making a difference and want to continue to work in arduous and challenging situations . I do not think there is any need for me to do it. As I said before, children in independent schools need good teachers too.

I do not mean that disparagingly. In an education system where a teachers worth in any school is determined by examination results, I know it is very difficult and for me it was disillusioning to do that day in day out. I did it for two years before I went into university education and I did it again for four years before moving to my present school.

I think it?s wrong to say that you require less subject knowledge to teach in a difficult school - an A level is an A level after all. What you absolutely do need is a far more creative approach and a much greater raft of teaching styles and techniques. You also need to have that ability to break a subject down and to know where misunderstandings can occur. The best teachers in state schools are by far the best teachers full stop and it depends on these abilities not their class of degree or the classification of their university

Idonthinksothanks, this really did disappoint me coming from you. You seemed to be less critical and more willing to be open minded.

I agree, A level is A level and it has to be delivered at a certain standard and with a certain knowledge base, wherever you are. However, I cannot agree with this:

What you absolutely do need is a far more creative approach and a much greater raft of teaching styles and techniques. You also need to have that ability to break a subject down and to know where misunderstandings can occur

I believe this is a key feature of teaching in any school. It is not the preserve of those who have to work in challenging ones or in the state sector. This is what any good teacher does anywhere, anytime with all the students they teach.

And this

The best teachers in state schools are by far the best teachers full stop and it depends on these abilities not their class of degree or the classification of their university

I don?t think so. I have seen far more good practice amongst my current colleagues than I saw in any of the state schools I worked in. This is partly, I think, because teachers in independent schools do have more opportunity to teach and to use a wider range of styles and can be more effective.

Whilst it is sometimes possible to use these strategies in state schools ,often the challenges in such environments means that there is a more limited approach -one which is familiar to the students and which they find predictable seems to be a more popular approach amongst many state teachers in my experience.

I'd have thought with your background you might be more suited to teaching in a state school than most

I dont see how that follows, so I really do have to ask why, if you do not mind answering.

Children from supportive, well-off backgrounds may look like they're 'learning' more, jabed, but actually the other kids may really be learning more, in other ways.

I am sure they are. I too have had my share of pupils who have called me to thank me - sometimes several years after I taught them (one stopped me in the supermarket 15 years after I had taught her).

However, the education system, certainly at A level, no matter where you teach, there are demands for top grades - or grades + value, which is sometimes worse.

It is just as much a pleasure and a "success" to be celebrated when I have a pleasant mannered young person taking A levels who maybe is not as high in ability as others but who is willing to take instruction and work hard, gets a good grade and goes off to a university too. They also "Thank" me - which isn?t necessary because I am just doing my job.

As an Oxbridge grad who went to a secondary modern, I reckon you'd be a great role model for the latter kids - learning how to learn, seeing that education can be for them as well - that's part of what you should be teaching them

I cannot see how this follows. Maybe you might care to explain the rationale?

Ladies, I have answered your questions. I understand (I think) what you are saying, although I cannot follow the logic always.

I love my current job. I feel I do fit in here. I feel privileged to have the opportunity. I know it is not the socially conscious thing to do.

However, please bear this in mind - in order to teach in a challenging (or even less challenging) state school, one has to be offered a job. When I found out I was being made redundant from my last state school around five years ago, my first applications were all to state schools. I made five such applications altogether. Three of them to schools with considerable deprivation. I had experience of such schools and had a track record for teaching so you would have thought me a suitable candidate? Clearly ladies, you think so, because you say so here constantly.

I didn?t even make the short list on the first three - two difficult schools and one which was more middle of the road. Now, for someone used to getting the first post they apply for, this was a shock. I knew my references and track record were OK, so I made enquiries as to what I lacked. One school replied, saying (paraphrase) there was nothing wrong with my application; it was a ?strong field" of candidates. The other two didn?t reply. I checked to see who was appointed at the schools I didn?t get an interview for. I found out they appointed young PGCE students /NQT?s (I say young as a descriptor as opposed to a mature PGCE/ NQT).

The next two schools I did get interviews for. At this point I got to see the
"Strong field" of applicants I was competing against because all these candidates had been for interview at the previous schools. Three were PGCE students seeking a fist post. They were all 22 and straight from school and who had been to the local ex poly and on to the teaching dept in the same place. They knew each other and were doing the rounds. One was an FE teacher - somewhat nearer my age (and of course myself). I didn?t establish much of her background.

In each case the PGCE student was chosen.

Jobs were running out - even in my shortage subject! I saw the advert for the independent school, which was a good drive away but commutable. I decided to apply. I landed the job and that dear ladies is the reason I am working in a top independent. I love it. I am grateful each day that they saw fit to think me the best person for their school. I consider myself highly privileged. I seem to fit in and it is great.

But, I repeat, it?s OK to say you should be doing this or that, in order to do so, one has to be chosen for the job. I was not. They preferred less qualified NQT's in those difficult state schools. The independent was the only one who looked at this Oxbridge guy and offered him the job.

So, please do not be too critical of me for being a rat leaving the state education ship.

What is your subject?

Jabed that's a lot of posts and a lot of information - I don't wish to speak for all the 'dear ladies' you're addressing, since we're not, after all, a homogenous group, and haven't been posing you questions as a collective, but I will give my response as one woman, at least.

I have to say that all your arguments above are rather at odds with most of the offensive things I've seen you say about state schools and those who teach in or attend them. I may have been unconsciously quoting Alan Partridge when I said 'subhuman' and 'scum', but I have certainly seen you post about such people in very disparaging ways which I find to be both unfair and untrue. Your narrative of rejection by the state system and being forced into the private sector doesn't tally with your other comments about not wishing your son to have to mix with the types you get at state school, either. So I think for all your lengthy posts to the dear ladies, you're really not giving the whole or honest picture.

As far as your experience in the job market goes, I suppose we could conclude one of two things - that state schools don't know a good teacher when one jumps up at them, and would rather hire a lot of NQTs with their 'positive language' bunkum, or that independent schools will hire the people state schools won't touch.

I get the impression I know which conclusion you find more sympathetic!

I think you are quite correct originalsteamingnit - independent schools will employ teachers that state schools will not touch. That is clear in my experience.

The question then is why don?t state schools want experienced and able teachers like me? The answer according to many has been cost. NQT's/M1 teachers are cheap and with ever decreasing budgets, they are very attractive propositions.

I am under no illusions.

doesn't tally with your other comments about not wishing your son to have to mix with the types you get at state school, either

It fits entirely. I also said in the thread you are referring to that I have very different criteria where my own son is concerned. You will have to forgive me for putting my son before the needs of the state education system to use him as a guinea pig.

"The question then is why don?t state schools want experienced and able teachers like me?"

Perhaps your experience is not the kind they need?

I don't know Jabed - if someone were to read through this thread, they would find that you:

1. Say that you have experience going over 30+ years, in 7 state schools, plus a further two in which you were employed as a supply teacher, from which you are able to draw measured conclusions. ("My personally based action researched sample consists of 10 schools . It is a longitudinal study of schools over a period from 1977 - to present day. The state sample size is 7 state schools although I admit five of those were "sink schools". One was a grammar ( although I could add two other grammar schools from a separate source , I do not, and the other a half way decent comprehensive ) and 2 independents. I can suppliment this with a number of experiences in schools as a supply teacher for a year as well , but I will leave that aside.")

1. Say that you have taught in state schools for a total of 6 years. ("I did it for two years before I went into university education and I did it again for four years before moving to my present school.")

Which is it?

I find it hard to engage with you because you constantly contradict yourself. I have no doubt that your qualifications are top notch, and that you do have teaching experience. However, you tie yourself in knots trying to prove that you are right, and actually, the evidence you present in this thread is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. I don't imagine for a minute that you will give an honest run down of your career - it would disprove too many of your assertions.

You claimed up-thread, for example, that you have ample experience of being told by state schools that you should employ NQTs as they are cheaper. I am now wondering if this was in reference to you losing out on jobs to NQTs (for whatever reason) rather than you being in a position to be the decision maker on as many occasions as you imply. You also said that you a) knew that no one at your state school had an Oxbridge degree and then b) that you had no idea where your state school colleagues had trained. I also keep coming back to the point where you insisted that every single one of your current colleagues trained at the top four institutions given by another poster, which happened to be the 2011 list. Coincidence? Or you trying desperately to prove yet again that you are right?

I suspect that the majority of your teaching has been in universities. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't know why you can't just be honest and open about it. I am perfectly happy to tell anyone who cares that after training I taught English and Drama at a top comprehensive in Warwickshire for three years, then moved to London and taught English and Drama at a challenging inner-city school for four years, during which time I was appointed Head of Drama. After than I moved to Gloucestershire and took a job as Head of Performing Arts at a rural comp. I stayed there for two years, then took four years off when I had children, then returned, by luck really, to the same school, where I have been Head of Performing Arts and also Head of 6th Form for a further three years.

Jabed - I bet you won't be so open.

I must say, as someone who taught in the state system for 12 years - sometimes happily, sometimes unhappily - that the bullying tone and petty nit-picking of some of these post makes me feel uncomfortable and that it makes me sad to feel that several of my erstwhile state school colleagues appear determined to illustrate the truth of the op's hypothesis.

There are lots of teachers doing their best in a variety of circumstances with a variety of skill sets. Allow each of us to choose a job which suits our skills and temperaments, our interests and our passions best.

Have a lovely time!