The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Sorry, 'falasy' is not a typing error, it's ignorance. And as I say, I wouldn't point them out to anyone else but I'm afraid you've built yourself a big shaky glass house there and you must expect your stones right back.

Not school teacher then Xenia! All these very well educated women going into teaching. Such a shame. Hope they've married someone wealthier than them

My school doesn't publish a list. If it did, it would show that in my department there are two PhDs, an MSc, two Cambridge graduates and not one degree from a new university.

You'd dismiss it out of hand for other reasons mind ..

Orignalsteamingnit, I am not bothered by a few broken windows. The house will still stand. It?s built on rock with solid foundations, not on sand. What you really mean is you do not like my opinions so you will use any false logic - or fallacy (in philosophy it?s called a non sequitur argument) to try and discredit me. If you feel so insecure you have to do that, I can?t stop you, but others might want to ask why you need to do that.

But it's a whole list of variables and it has to be easier for teachers to teach children/young people who have stable families, lots of opportunities to do interesting things (riding, good sports clubs, theatre, music, good holidays, etc,) and have loaded bookshelves and access to musical instruments than it is to teach those who live with instability and poverty where education is not high on the family agenda. And taking that into account if all the teachers from old polys switched places with all the teachers from RG uni's then the results would still be higher. The Oxbridge teachers presumably are able to chose an easier life than the others if that's what they want but that is a new argument.

This has to be one of "silliest" threads I've seen in a long time. The teachers at my dc's school are better than at yours, yah boo sucks.

It isn't a non sequitur to say that it's very odd that someone so judgmental and unpleasant about education should be so poor at writing.

I can and have engaged with the rest of your glass house, and am happy to do so again.

I don't pick anyone up on spelling and grammar usually, but where someone makes a big thing of his/her superior intellect, I think it's relevant. Last night at a sixth form information evening, I saw 'advise' for 'advice' and 'student's' for 'students', which made me a bit dubious - but I bet if jabed had had those mistakes pointed out to him spotted the same, that would have been recruited into an argument about the poor quality of state education across the board. Which would be unfair and annoying!

Anyway.

I don't think many people go to Oxford or Cambridge with the intention of becoming a state school teacher - of course some do, but I'm not sure it's usually a common ambition.

What does happen, and I've seen it happen, and it was suggested to me as a potential Plan B whilst I was doing my PhD is that people finish Phds and are very well versed in whatever that area is, and obviously bright - and then find academia very hard to get into, and even harder to get any sort of permanent contract which is going to get them a mortgage and stability.

Then people start asking if they've thought about teaching in a school instead. And they don't always get accepted onto a PGCE because their subject might be over-subscribed, or there might be more convincing candidates, or the admissions people are suspicious that they are doing it as a plan B rather than out of a passion for teaching, and may just leave if something better comes along.

And then people start saying 'have you thought about teaching in a private school? You get nice long holidays, and you don't need to be qualified, and the kids are usually quite well-behaved.' And then some of them do that, and they may well end up being good teachers, or they may not.

Even when my career in academia was looking as though it would never go anywhere, I responded to such suggestions with a polite smile, but would never have taken that path - I do think that the pedagogy is important, and I know that it's taken me a long time even to be as good a teacher to undergrads as I am now, and I think there's still a lot to learn - but in academia as in private schools, you don't necessarily get much training in how to actually impart knowledge and make a class productive and engaging. I do alright, but I don't think I'm done with improving by a long chalk. I also know that whilst I know a lot about one area of my subject, I'm not particularly capable of making other areas of it interesting to 11 year olds, or getting 16 year olds through their GCSEs. I might do ok with a bunch of motivated children, but I wouldn't assume anything!

So yeah, I doubt there are all that many Oxford or Cambridge graduates at my daughters' schools, but as long as they are qualified and trained to do what they do, that's fine by me.

Xenia, it depends on how you bring your children up, what class of person you are, what potential your dcs have to learning, and how good the teachers are, as to how successful their education is.
Your school would simply not do for my family at all.

I think what surprised me, and agree OP not worded well, is that you can't seemingly get a job at an independent school that ranks at very the top of the FT league table unless you have a 2:1 or in many cases a first from a well regarded/top tier University. Probably very naive of me. What brought this to my attention was a friend hoping to teach maths at GHS. They were allegedly only looking for candidates with a first from a well regarded university as a starting point.

I have a good first degree and a Masters in Primary Ed and, because I've always chosen to work in state schools, I can't afford to do a PhD. Maybe some of these teachers are so highly qualified because they work in the private sector and have the extra pay to pursue further qualifications?

Ha ha Xenia, no response to the Hatfield 'Uni', then, though you'd jump up and down on it if it was at a state school, as 'evidence' of poor standards?! As I said, Watford Grammar, along with other academic state schools, does publish lists of teachers and their universities but not on the webite - I'm far too rubbish a typist to be up to typing it all up on here, but if you get the prospectus for any of thee schools, it includes this info, so the state schools are certainly not feeling the need to 'hide' anything (unlike Eton).

As pointed out, of course the Oxbridge educated teachers you are so proud of cannot afford to send their own kids private - but of course, we don't believe that it is important or indeed desirable for our own children.Which should tell you something.

How much more do you earn in an Independent school?

Hamishbear - did the school find anyone like that? I believe that finding maths teachers is hard enough as it is. I know an Oxbridge graduate teaching at one of the country's top public schools who got a 2.1 - very much doubt your friend's experience is typical.

In fact, I'd be inclined to wonder if your friend was told this to make them feel better about failing to get the job? I'd be v surpried indeed if these standards were accurate - 1st class maths graduaates from top unis can command v high salaries in the real world, so doubt a few grand extra in a private school would be a huge draw. If this was true, there would be a lot of unfilled posts at top schools.

Yes I see where you are coming from Bread, I have also seen this mentioned on TES curiously enough. Just anecdotal & my friend may have been the one who posted about it but thought it was interesting.

Just to add is there not more competition for jobs now than previously so schools can increasingly pick & choose?

I don't think maths graduates with firsts from top unis will find it too hard internationally, no. Golden handshakes for maths teachers full stop still exist (in the state system) so assume they're still sought after.

ie it is the graduates picking and choosing, rather than the schools.

OriginalSteamingNit, You are wrong jabed's writing is very good. It is smooth and has good grammar and it makes sense. If I could write half as well I would be happy. Spelling has nothing to do with good writing. I think you are too critical.

I have read this with interest. My own DC's are in an independent school. Not a fancy one but even there the staff qualifications are impressive. I just think that independent schools get to pick choose the best qualified.

Oh well, I'm not going to go back through all his posts, I've just noticed a few errors that would completely slip under my radar were they not actually a part of a post lamenting poor standards in schools!

That was really a very tiny part of my last post, anyway.

bbn, I did respond. I said all the private parents on the thread could see the best private schools have a great set of teachers and no way do we need them all to be Obxridge although the overwhelming majority are that and good universities. Perfectly content with my children's teachers. If one or two didn't even do a degree or went somewhere dross but teaches well that's good too.

On this
"Hamishbear Wed 27-Jun-12 10:06:44

I think what surprised me, and agree OP not worded well, is that you can't seemingly get a job at an independent school that ranks at very the top of the FT league table unless you have a 2:1 or in many cases a first from a well regarded/top tier University. Probably very naive of me. What brought this to my attention was a friend hoping to teach maths at GHS. They were allegedly only looking for candidates with a first from a well regarded university as a starting point."

I suspect the above is also because of today's market. There is just flood of people looking for work in just about all jobs so employers have more choice. The market is not always like that.

I do think though that if someone had a chidl who wanted to teach in that kind of school then the parent and their school ought to be letting them know if you want to teach at XYZ, then you will need to go to a univesrity like this and get ABC degree. Do not let children be lulled into false senses of security.

but I bet if jabed had had those mistakes pointed out to him spotted the same, that would have been recruited into an argument about the poor quality of state education across the board. Which would be unfair and annoying!

Originalsteamingnit, I can tell you that jabed would have done nothing of the sort. That comment says more about you I am afraid.

As for
That was really a very tiny part of my last post, anyway

No it was not and you saw fit to make the same comment and extend it. So much for a ?small part" of any post. You were just getting your jibes in.

As for my ability to comment on the lamentable condition of the state education system, I would suggest I am well placed having suffered at its hands. One of a few maybe who are so well placed.

I would agree with your proposition that most Oxbridge graduates do not go into teaching as a first choice but I would not think it is limited to just Oxbridge. I recall seeing on the web site of an ex teacher of mine that he had followed a career in teaching after spending ?Three years roistering and philosophising at Durham and graduating with a third in classics. This was followed by a time as an ice cream salesman and a hot dog salesman before going to teach? He though worked all his life in a state secondary modern school (and I mean a real SM)

I certainly did not pick school teaching as a first option. It was a stop gap initially and has now become a second career, following my retirement from a more successful academic career. However, I still do the job well and that should be all that matters.

Finally, it was not any proud boasting that led me to reveal my academic background but a constant barage of requests and demands from another poster that I should do so.

You're one of very few who have been state educated and worked in a state school? Really?

I mean, I for one have done both and have children in two state schools: can't be that unusual!

Not engaging with the rest, but if you look at my post at 9.58 I don't really see how you can say that it's not a small part. End.

You're one of very few who have been state educated and worked in a state school? Really?

No, but I am one of a few who went to a state secondary modern and then Oxbridge. That gives me more insight than most into the lamentable standards in state education.

There are three posts where you attempt the same argument. Thats hardly a small part. Once should have been enough for anyone.

Have a nice day :) I intend enjoying mine.