The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Ah, I missed the shmuck who didn't know his own uni abbreviation so you're right, gelatinous. 1 more! But am now awaiting Xena's explanation of why fictitious uni/Hatfield Poly is a desirable alma mater in this case. But beyond the pale if teaching at a state school.

By the way, another point to note is Habs is much smaller than Watford Grammar - about half the number of pupils. But has the same number of teachers... Which is really the crux of the matter - not that the teachers at an academic private school are any more highly qualified than the teachers at an academic grammar school, but that the class sizes are smaller in a private school.

It is quantity, not quality, that is being paid for, in truth, in answer to the OP.

Surely delving into specifics like this is fairly irrelevant? The Hatfield bod might be a brilliant teacher or have other desirable qualities or just be one of the poorer teachers at the school who knows?

But I'm inclined to believe Sutton Trust (who surveyed more schools) that on average there are 7x more oxbridge grads at independents, which surely means if your dd's school has a comparable number to a typical independent that many other state schools have even fewer than their fair share. The discrepancy between state schools is huge.

Also, I know at Oxford they currently recommend using Oxford rather than Oxon to their academic staff. If the same is true at Cambridge, then maybe that member of staff is just more up with the latest trend than the others (or more recently recruited) rather than a shmuck.

Gelatinous - I was about to say the samething as you have above. It deos seem that the newer graduatesare using Cambridge rather than Cantab, Oxford rather than Oxon and even Durham rather than Dunlm and Exeter instead of Exon.

I would call it dumbing down. It reaches all parts eventually. :)

Morethanpotatoprints, we (DW and self) home school - for various reasons.DS is an August born and my school is a good driving distance and he is young, so we have not put him in there. Too far and too early start for a little one to do that distance. We did send him to a local school but that was somewhat unsatisfactory. MNers suggested Home school. Its been , in my view quite successful.

I've said twice the main difference lies in numbers per pupil and class sizes too bread; I'm not sure that the private schoolers really appreciate the difference that this can make, both to staff and pupils.

And like you, I also remarked that the Habs list was pretty mixed. But that's the case with all the lists. There's a marked difference between departments, because obviously those recruiting aren't totally blinkered by the whole Oxford, Cambridge, Durham thing and look into things in slightly more depth.

Perhaps this much maligned teacher from Hatfield is so proud of her old Durham college that she wanted to put it on her CV, in the way some Oxonians do. She might be a good egg after all.

I've heard some very imaginative swearing coming from some highly educated members of my immediate circle. Eye watering even. And conducted in both rp and accents well to the north and west of rp. Not too sure that those things carry much weight any more than this Dunelm/ Exon/ Oxon nonsense does.

gelatinous - I'm teasing Xenia - I'm not for one minute suggesting that because the teacher went to Hatfield Poly she must therefore be pants. However, Xenia and others on this thread have suggested exactly that - that teachers who attended lower ranking unis are by definition poorer teachers. And if you live by the sword, you should die by the sword, so to speak...

I'm sure the Sutton Trust is right that more teachers at private schools went to Xbridge; but I don't think that's comparing like with like. Most private schools are selective. my point was that if you compare two very similar schools which are both selective and with a strong academic focus, then the provenance of teachers would be pretty similar. Which they are in the example I looked at (well, Watford Grammar is slightly better IMHO).

i daresay that lots of ordinary comps have v few Oxbridge graduates - because academic schools value Oxbridge grads more and seek them out, in the hope that, as others have suggested, they can keep up with and astretch their most able pupils. It doesn't mean they are 'better' teachers in every situation, though - they might really struggle with he bottom set in a sink school, say. Just horses for courses. By the way, I'm an Oxford grad who this year has been teaching v bottom-set type kids in an FE college - I've rather enjoyed it, actually. As others hav also said on here, it's a differemt type of challenge, but a challenge nonetheless, to break knowledge down into tiny manageable chunks so you can drip feed it to kids who find it harder to take stuff in. Plus harder to get them to behave properly, listen, stop rolling round on the floor/hitting each other/making dirty jokes etc (and they are 16-18 year olds!) and focus. Quite fun, though. Just different.

Jabed. Absolutely fantastic and I bet your ds will thrive. I will no doubt catch up with you on H.e threads then. I'm quite often procrastinating and luking on there.

Jabed, away with all the bestest teacher in the whole world crapola, then. Why aren't you doing a john taylor gatto and putting your money where your mouth is?

More teachers need to speak up about the way kids are being disadvantaged by the sausage factory state system. I suppose you're going to come up with the old 'only change the system from within, but it's not enough for my child' stuff. All fair enough, but why aren't you, with your fabulous credentials, doing something on a far wider scale?

I assume dw is actually the one he-ing, what with all the hours you are putting in to your career?

madwomanintheattic - I am not going to give you any tale about changing the system from within. I dont believe it.

But my days of being a revolutionary are gone.

I am a has been.

I would rather make a small difference in a childs life where I know it can count ( and that is with children who can make use of it - sorry to say it)

I am also not atall sure that education is a sausage factory, a brick in the wall or anything else. I am not a pro Illich educationalist.

I also have to consider my DS - he does not need an old dad with an agenda hanging round his neck whilst he moves through the system.

I work part time , so I would like to feelthat the HE is a joint affair, however, I am well aware that my DW is superb and she does far more with DS than I do.

I have to settle for the role of being "dad" - the man with muscles and there when I am needed.

I take it back madwomanintheattic - I might just be steaming up for a fight against the " mdern education system".

Poor DS may just have to deal with an old dad who is a revolutionary after all.

I do not believe that children need shorter holidays and longer days in school. I do not believe it has any advantage. In fact its the last of the hidden curriculum - and the main reason we HE.

That's the spirit. Get out there and do it.

If it wasn't good enough for ds, why is it good enough for anyone else's child?

With your profile, you could get people to listen.

Open letter to the torygraph?

Not sure your employer would be too chuffed, but you could surely work out a way to involve them in a positive manner...

Jabed, just curious.

Do you mean it has no advantage FOR YOU AND YOUR CHILD? (as I would be with you there - I would be vehemently against compulsory longer days and shorter holidays)

OR

That you think it has no possible advantage FOR ANY CHILD (as I would dispute that with you - teaching where I do, we have quite a high proportion of children who spend their much of their out of school time being actively or passively neglected e.g. minded by slightly older teen or pre-teen siblings, sent 'out to play' until parents return from work at 5.30 or 6 pm, parked in front of the tv while a carer who works night shifts sleeps etc)

TW2K - no , not just my DC, any child.

a) there are more important things in life

b) kids need a homelife, not one full of busy bees..

c) anyone who says a child has "lost " some learning over a school holiday/ break is confusing the meaning of learning. Its likely lost because it had not been consolidated. Learning is relatively permanent, it doesnt get "lost" easily.
d) No one has died yet wishing they had worked longer hours or spent more time in school ( although some may wish they had paod more attention in school)

e) All work and no play teaches is a hidden curriculum that you work for nothing - a man is worthy of his hire ( as is a woman). Employers love the charter which says " you will work all hours cos you are supposed to love it)

f) Most independent school work on shorter days ( falasy to say we dont) and on longer hoiolidays and still manage to knock spots off state education - so maybe you need to look harder at what they do , rather than jumping to the notion that kids must do longer school times/

g) School is not a sunstitute for social workers and it is not the purpose of education to deal with neglect - get the social services in!
Poor parenting needs to be dealt with at source - parents.

h) Kids are at school longer hours now than ever before. They start at a younger age ( younger than anywhere else) and stay longer in school - yet it seems they are now less literate, less numerate and more poorly educated than ever before.

There is something else worng.

As for your notion of sitting in front of TV or going to play - well a generation or two ago, we all did that - and still we are better educated than the current crop, despite all the mucking about to do better.

After a hard day at school/ work. sitting in front of the TV should be what its about. Down time.

I could go on. I wont. My DS needs me.

Oh If kids arent learning what they are being taught - then maybe they need to be taught something else? maybe they are just not suited to an academic curriculum?

Personally I educate my DS mornings only. The curriculum is small - reading , writing and maths ( because I know kids need to bond with numbers early to be good with them) and some music ( I have been criticised for the music because some say he is too young - however, DW is an accomplished musician and she said he was ready to do more than "plonk " and besides it saved our ears!)

But we do not make him do music. He is not made to "practice". After school he plays - he plays on his swing in the garden , or goes out, or draws and colouirs indoors if the weather is bad. We give him books and materials for things to do. He doesnt have to do them.

He is presently about two years ahead of his peers in school . Not because we push or do wrap around education.

A couple of hours a day is all you need to keep up with (and overtake) schooled pupils, tbh. The rest is filler time. Obv I'm only talking about academics, but tbh that's how the whole system is judged at the end of the day, so I don't feel too badly about using the same criteria. My friend who he's has a sister who is a teacher. She's already planning to he, when she has children. I find it fascinating how so many teachers opt for he, in the end.

I'm not being barbed, btw! Genuinely find it fascinating. I don't know if it's disillusionment, or what.

Apparently though madwomanintheattic I am an "ass" - according to those experts in the state system ( another thread) . So no one will listen to me.

Jabed, sorry if I have caused the thread to wander into your H.E. experience. I am reading Doing it there way, atm. I am interested in autonomous ed but wonder if I'm brave enough to give it a shot. Have written dereg letter but waiting until end of year report comes before I hand it in. I don't want a half hearted attempt because she's leaving. Also desperately hoping dh will offer to teach Grammar, if so we're cooking with gas.

FALASY? Are you joking?

Seriously, sorry if it turns out you are dyslexic or anything, but for one person on the same page to say that using Oxford rather that Oxon. is dumbing down and then to say that something is a 'FALASY' is just laughable! You affect some kind of learned 'proud to be an old fart' persona, despising young teachers, children, the poor and the disadvantaged, and tout your massively superior experience and qualifications, and you actually cannot spell or write! Good luck to your DS: get him into the cozy prep ASAP, I say, because even though not all of the teachers will be properly qualified, some of them might be literate!

I saw the number of typos in that post alone as someone in a hurry, tbh. Although falasy did make me laugh in context.

Thje Habs list is excellent. None of the private parents have said we want a 100% Oxbridge list. We just say on the whole the kinds of institutions which produce good people is pretty consistent and most of the teachers at the private schools tend to have gone there. The state schoolers by the way have not linked to one single list anywhere. The Sutton trust quote is the best - as it showed through research private teachers were much better on most scores and the reference above to m any more teachers at private schools seals the deal - pic a career as a woman which means you can pay school fees and you do your children no end of good.

originalsteamingnit, you have to remember I am very old ( VERY OLD) to you. That means I have poor eyesight and fat fingers and I make typing errors. I am also in a hurry as I have many things I have to do usually.

I despair at people who have nothing more to say than point out typing errors. Not all of us were brought up on keyboards. I was taught to write.

Xenia- I don't think that state schools have such lists readily available. You can't make assumptions about that- it's just the way it is. It will not mean that state schools have something to hide or are embarrassed about teachers' education.