The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Hopefully - that is one example. TW2K has given you another. There is no "one size fits all".

I'll tell you what makes a difference. When an indy has a failing teacher, one can write a very nice letter to the head enclosing the fee cheque and noting that it if isn't sorted, then the cost of a tutor will be deducted from next term's cheque. It was sorted in 48 hours.

When we had similar during the two years dd went to a top 100 cofe comp, we wrote a similar letter, were called in for a meeting and were told there wasn't a problem. We removed dd about a year ago. I understand there has been a deputation this year but there still has not been a solution.

MIW This is a real life example of why those who bleat that more middle-class paretns would improve state schools by their influence with head -teachers are wrong - parents have no influence in state schools

Of course its always far easier to hide in the corner with likeminded people than to actually have the courage to make a difference to society as a whole.

Its not easy changing society. In fact on any scale at all, its not really possible for one individual to do that. Besides. we all tend to group with likeminded folk. Thats how friendships areformed.

ON the thread it seems that those o fuf who pay fees for the best of the UK's academic selective private schools are pretty happy with the teaching which is lovely for us. If teachers are wondering what sort of people teach there they can look at the links on the lists posted.

The difference to society? Not sure what we mean by that. If we want to ensure comprehensive school children on sink estates learn to speak with received pronunciation that woudl make a massive differnce as many employers recuirt on class grounds as well as exam results so state school teachers could have lunch time clubs in how to speak properly for example. That mkight make a difference.

Also state schools could be given the right to sack teachers more easily. Since April 2012 you now need to work for 2 years in jobs before you can claim unfair dismissal generally so that should help a bit unless teachers' unions have matters stitched up in a different way.

Teach first will help. My son's school friend who started doing law (AAA, public school, good university, 2/1) is having 2 years doing that whilst he raises funds to complete the law stuff and indeed presumably there is a good chance he will stay in teaching. So clever bright graduates who can get on that programme are moving into some state schools so that might "make a difference".

Teach first will help. My son's school friend who started doing law (AAA, public school, good university, 2/1) is having 2 years doing that whilst he raises funds to complete the law stuff and indeed presumably there is a good chance he will stay in teaching. So clever bright graduates who can get on that programme are moving into some state schools so that might "make a difference"

Will it? It could make a difference either way. Many new entrants who work in state only stay in teaching for five years according to the research. Many more try to get out and take longer. I think its more lieky that those on teach first will use it as a gap filler and then run.

If you try before you buy, it may mean that even fewer of the brightest want to stick at it in the state system. I know of several young people who started off teaching and had made up their minds before they finished their PGCE's that they didnt want to be in state schools. Only annacdotal . But I do wonder

I think it will be good for the schools to have those fairly bright young people in the system and it certainly gives the young people a chance to work and be paid. I certanily would prefer the boy I'm thinking of to continue with law in terms of his own future income and life but there was no option. People need jobs and money.

Teach first will help. My son's school friend who started doing law (AAA, public school, good university, 2/1) is having 2 years doing that whilst he raises funds to complete the law stuff

Great - just what state education needs. Someone who sees it as a stop-gap on the way to his "real" career. Xenia - surely you understand that being a good teacher takes more dedication than that.

Something I agree with Jabed about!

Xenia - "The difference to society? Not sure what we mean by that. If we want to ensure comprehensive school children on sink estates learn to speak with received pronunciation that woudl make a massive differnce as many employers recuirt on class grounds as well as exam results so state school teachers could have lunch time clubs in how to speak properly for example. That mkight make a difference."

If ever we needed proof that those in the 'upper echelons' are as far removed from society as those at the bottom of the ladder, this was it! Thank you! RP???! We're not still living in the 50s for goodness sake!

If ever we needed proof that those in the 'upper echelons' are as far removed from society as those at the bottom of the ladder, this was it! Thank you! RP???! We're not still living in the 50s for goodness sake!

No, we are notliving in the 1950's. I was born then and I think Xenia is correct. We would greatly improve childrens chances if it were possible to teach them to be , as was once said " the possessors of the right culture"

Extended language codes and certain cultural factors do make all the difference in getting the edge for a job or a good school these days - more than ever before I would say ( having been born and grown up at the time of greater social mobility than now!). Those at the bottom of the ladder do not have cultural capital, thats the problem . At least in the old system teachers were mifddle class by definition and they did try to instill those values such that children mught have a chance.

Now we have to accept the equality of another culture and value diversity...... infortunately, many people pay that lip service but in reality they want the an emplyee or student with a particular skill set and who can fit into their business. That usually means middle class values and middle class efortlessness and middle class "smarts" even. Look around at who has the jobs - and who have the top jobs and scratch the surface - and you will find middle class values and often independent school education lurking not far beneath. Welcome to the 21st Century

What world are you living in? My DH and are both in professions for which we had to attend elite institutions in order to gain the right degree (not Oxbridge, we both needed to attend very specialist institutions, but very definitely in that league, arguably above). Neither of us speak with an RP accent (we could, but we choose not to) neither do any of our colleagues. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, that in my profession, one would be laughed at if one were to affect an RP accent. Perhaps your worlds are so very, very narrow, that you do indeed need an RP accent? Hence you feel the need to buy your children into the same narrow world view?

Neither of us speak with an RP accent (we could, but we choose not to)

the key is not necessarily that one is wellspoken but that one has the ability to be so if required. Most children from sink estates do not have that as an option. To give that skill to them would open many doors. Its not about accent. Its about elaborated language codes.

Well that brings us nicely back to the topic.

I originate from a so called 'sink estate'. I attended a comprehensive that even the lowliest would shun. BUT, I had a couple of teachers who inspired me, knew their subject well, and above all else believed that they and we could make a difference - this is REAL aspiration! I have no idea where they studied. They were also well able to cope with the out of the box thinking and reasoning of highly able and articulate but also very streetwise teenagers. I was fortunate enough to have a particular skill (I studied music as a first degree at a prestigious college - they took account of my 'lowly beginnings'). The council paid for my music tuition pre university.

Now, my DH and I have very successful careers - I went on to study in various London institutions, as did my husband. We could afford to send our DC to any private school of our choosing, but we believe that sending them to our local successful comprehensive (yes, I know we're lucky to have this) will give them a far wider and more grounded world view which will enable them not just to pursue successful careers, but aspirational ones - believing that they really can play their part in the wider society.

I wasn't saying accent was the only thing that matters but it certainly helps. There was a survey on it.
www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/14/job-applicants-social-class-milburn This is not it - it is just Milburn going on about class.

Ah found it www.cass.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/103221/working-paper-006-2011.pdf

Now I've forgotten what the thread was about. Ah yes, I had taken us on to accents but they are only part of what you need to succeed in many jobs - obviously brains and passing exams most people fail is a starting point for most good careers. Being fat apparently holds you back. Wearing the wrong clothes doesn't help. Sometimes it helps to have hobbies in common with those interviewing you - I think my oldest have benefited from being able in interviews to talk about skiing or sailing or riding (they have mentioned it) and indeed one does quite a bit of work sailing and skiing which I never imagined would be part of her "work" when we went on those first rather primitive skiing holidays about 20 years ago in a place without bathrooms.

The investment in skiing paid off! Even the meeting I was at on Friday everyone was talking about skiing and I could be part of it as I ski. However I would hope mjost well educated chdilren can find something in common with everyone and I am just as good at feigning interest in people's dogs (I detest dogs but can project an image as dog lover) or the latest football or tennis if I have to (I never voluntarily watch any sport and won't even with the Olympics).

My take on this is that it is much more geographical than anything else. Where I am based, there are only two private schools (sec) anywhere vaguely close. This means that most teachers don't work in them, nor do most children attend them. It is in the north, so even the affluent children have trace of a regional accent. Most children go to a relatively local university. The very clever go to an RG institution, because that is what is reasonably close to hand, but Oxbridge is not. That is the reality for millions, including the clever.

Well Xenia the MC firm I interviewed at many years ago phoned to offer me a TC even before I arrived home (S. London) and I don't recall the subject straying much beyond cockroaches (I had had a bad experience wth cockroaches the previous night).

As for teachers, I recall a tutor at university who had been elected to All Souls at an absurdly young age not being able to hold a candle to other tutors who had cut their teeth in newer, more urban settings - I'm sure that translates to school teaching too. And I am wholly with marriedinwhite: it's about the 'package'. I've trusted out HTs to select the teachers deemed the best fit for post and never judged the school on my assessment of the teachers credentials. It's a much safer test to cut to ethos and the few years of results.

our HTs. And the last few years of results.

@yellow the only teachers who universities I know are one who was a personal friend years before DD1 went to the school (when I first knew her, she was a fellow parent at nursery) and one whose DD is Dd1's best friend. I'm completely cool with my ignore tbh - they all seem great, when I meet them (which is as you know incredibly rarely). That's all that matters really.

As for Eton, you'd receive a list of short House Master's bibliography, once your ds get a conditional offer. there are only less than handful HMs with non-Oxbridge education & some others are even Eton KS, all of which have various professions previously - if that is what some of you are after.

My dh taught a non academic subject at one of the top boys boarding schools in the country. He has a graduate diploma in his subject, 3 A levels and good O'levels. He attended a selective Grammar school, many years ago, lol. He was employed on the basis of recommendation and reputation. Since leaving he is now called on to visit most independant boarding/ non boarding and specialist schools, to provide workshops and/or masterclasses. He doesn't have a degree nor a teaching qualification.

I mentor PGCE students and have done so for over ten years. The worst student I have ever had went to teach in a private school. He was the cleverest student I had ever had as his outstanding degree results showed. He was not the best teacher though by a long shot

I never trust the ideas of PGCE mentors as to what makes a good teacher. Sorry.

I recall when I returned to teaching a few years ago. I got a job in a middle of the road rural comprehensive. It was a good school. Then there were changes in maneagement and certain things happened.
We started having "really brilliant" young teachers, according to the PGCE mentors coming into the school . These young people had meteoric rises in their careers. Two went from being NQT's to being Head of Dept in a year. One went from being an NQT to Assistant Head. Another, Head of faculty, was made an AST in less than three years.

They arrived with the edu speak from college. The Ass t Head , told me all about the role of "positive language" in dealing with disruptive and challenging behaviour.

The RE teacher, who was an atheist, wanted to be "positive to Islam" - we were a rural quiet backwater, we had no Moslems in the school. We did have a Jewish community and we did have a larger number of Christians who even used the school for meetings. He insisted that Islam was on the curriculum...... a lot of the kidsresented it, especially those from forces families whose dads had their lives on the line fighting "Islam" . No sensitivity for them though.

Then we had a lovely AST/ Head of Faculty/ History teacher who taught all about WW2 for the GCSE syllabus - I guess its on there , I dont know. She was such an " active" teacher. Her lessons , it was said, were thoroughly enjoyable and " engaged" the pupils etc. We lesser mortals were chided by her because we were not good enough as teachers. We were chided further for our results.

Another restructure saw a large nubmer of older staff forced out as these young things go going with their " star" exercises and " brain gym" at the start of lessons.

One old commerade told me before he left ( had been Head of Humanities for many years) that whilst the young AST was telling him about his results and teaching , her " results did not bear scrutiny " - he said . I checked ( being a maths type bloke and a statistician). He was right. I checked the others, I found similar. She was telling us we were getting poor results which was a result of bad teaching but her results did not match up to any of mine (or my ex colleagues) .

I actually pointed this out - and got left alone!

Meanwhile all that positive language from PGCE courses, in dealing with challenging behavior was having an effect. Behaviour standards seemed to me to be dropping - but I was told it was my discipline that was ineffective.
I was no longer allowed to send pupils out of class. If I sent for the removals and discipline team (which consisted of these bright young things) , the pupil was given a lecture in "positive language" and returned to me ...... usually with a smirk across his/her face! They knew they had the run of it. One said to me " You cant do anythin'. Its only Miss X on call and she wont do nothin'" She was unfortunately right.

But still it persisted , I and those oldies like me were poor teachers and had to be removed. My discipline was better than most and try as she did, the AST couldnt fault me and I remained. I looked for another post

All those bright young teachers whose PGCE mentors said were excellent, all their new ideas amd the kids did know we couldnt do anything.It was a joke to them. They did as they liked.

Suddenly and rather quietly, all of these bright young teachers who had meteoric careers ahead of them started to leave. The RE teacher went as a caretaker (verger) to an Oxford College Chapel. The Assistant Head went sick, I dont know what with and never returned. The replacement for the RE teacher was another wonderful NQT who rose to HoD quickly and she left to go walkabout in the world a year later. The AST was appointed Ass t head in another school but a year later she had left and was a SAHM, I later found out that our own Ass t Head, was running a camping site on the coast.

So, they had all left teaching. This old foggie on the other hand,with a first and a Ph.D from an Oxbridge College has been teaching in schools and in University for nearly 30 years. According to those who think people like myself never make good teachers I should have been the one legging round the world, running a camp site or being a SAHD.

You will excuse my scepticism about how good mentors think those young promising teachers are wont you?

I thought she meant as a classroom mentor, whose opinion I would value, not the teacher training mentor in college.

classroom mentors,just as bad if not worse - how do you thinkwe ended up with all those NQT's promoted so quickly? I have heard of the Peter Principle but that was silly.