Scottish Universities a tad posh ....

[TalkinPeace2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18317093

St Andrews admitted 13 students from deprived areas out of a total student body of 7370

well yah !

PLEASE do not think you need a child studying in France to visit Paris. Education in France is mostly dreadful, and that which is not is almost inaccessible to those who do not hold the French baccalauréat.

Ah yes, coffee towers.

I really hope snobbishness is not infecting Scottish higher education, one of its strong points is that young people here tend to make pragmatic decisions about which uni to go to. Eg. Location, courses, friends, transport, rather than how posh ( or not ) they are.

The snobbishness seems to come from south of the border.

Don't worry Bonsoir - it was only a joke although not totally on dh's part

My degree is in French (well, half of it is) and am well aware of the French snobbishness elitism in their education system.

The fact that ds doesn't like French probably doesn't help anyway

MIT or Harvard sound a lot more attractive!

I agree!

But let's take things one step at a time - he only starts at secondary school tis August!

Having said that, I'm told that St Andrews has an excellent astronomy course but although I'd quite like ds to go to my alma mater not least because I like Jannetta's icencreams ds is adamant he wants to go to Glasgow.

.....but that is also because his game plan is to go to Glasgow Uni, play for Cartha QP rugby at the same time and then progress to play for Glasgow Warriors.

At least ds is thinking big!

Oh you can never start too young planting the seeds of ambition in your DCs' minds and watering furiously as the years go by.

Not forgetting Morellis...,,,,,

On a serious note though, bringing back the disucssion to the OP - what can be done to increase aspirations amongst all children - and is it fair to blame the Unis if people don't apply to them?

No, it is entirely unfair to blame universities if people don't apply.

I have heard some very shocking stories of prejudice against certain institutions by schools university advisers. And some schools "falling out" with certain universities. Sometimes I think that schools should not be involved at all in university selection - it should be entirely separate.

I just want to add to the point that Edinburgh does give more credit to those from deprived areas. It isn't just a social conscience, these students tend to do better and need less spoon feeding. It is harder to get AAABB at a bad school than AAAAA at a top private school, so these students are still getting in on merit and have probably worked more independently both for their exams and on their applications.

It is unfair to blame the universities, or expect them to make up the difference and shortcomings of different school educations. Instead of letting people in with poorer or missing qualifications, I would prefer to see more courses offering a pre-university year in conjunction with local colleges for people who have had a poor school education, to catch up before starting university.

On fees, they don't pay in Scotland so other Eu state national (but not the English, Welsh etc) can go to Scottish universities free if (I think) they reciprocate.

(The other change (in England but I suppose not Scotland, so not relevant to the thread) is the new right for universities to take as many candidates as they like who have AAB even ( English A levels, not Scottish highers) above the capped numbers they are usually allowed to take in. That is going to mean if you get good grades in England you have a much better chance of getting into places which are better than others.)

How do we improve aspirations of all people? Show them examples. Give them mentors. Have high expectations for them. Set the clever ones in clever sets in school. Given them trips to see universities.
Do not though make those who are not really up to it think they should obtain a degree which may not be much use to them.

I went to Edinburgh - I cam from a local comp, few of family had ever been to uni etc.

I wonder if St Andrews has changed since William - wonder if the elite are more attracted to it now....

I also work in a 6th form ina deprived area and we have an average amount fo students go to Oxford, Cambridge, Durham,Edinburgh etc etc.... Is based on grades, not where kids are from..... surely?

@Bonsoir - not on my list they aren't. Both Durham and Bristol still very well thought of, although yes Imperial ranks higher. Not kings though.

Metabilis - I agree that it depends quite significantly on the course of study/type of recruiter.

@bonsoir "Go to any of the big international firms' HR departments and ask them where they actually and actively look for recruits, and the big six are Oxbridge and the four London universities. Anything else is already second-tier."

I'm sorry, but I work for a big international firm and what you say is just not true. Neither Kings nor UCL are particularly highly rated and other universities are. Including Durham Bristol and (shudder) Exeter. Not St Andrews though.

Well I beg to differ. I don't know where you work, but I was at a webinar with several firms with offices across the globe (different regional offices from each firm) the other day on this very issue - Durham and Exeter were invisible (ie an application would have been rejected outright) and Bristol barely featured.

mumble the Surrey Highlanders have been applying to St. A for decades, it's not a William thing. William probably applied in part precisely because of that part of St. A's reputation, Kate Middleton too.

DH is, as we speak, perusing some CVs for trainee solicitors (he works for a huge internation law firm).

Exceter, Bristol, Warwick...all fine.

His comment reflects very badly on the Freshfields trainee. He may well falter before he gets very far in his glittering career. If a graduate from Leicester happens to get through the vac scheme interviews and the vac scheme itself then they deserve their contract wherever they did their degree. Plenty of Oxford and Cambridge applicants don't end up with a place.

Another MC firm has been recruiting from both QML and Leicester for years and has a well deserved top place in the hierarchy.

One of my links above mentioned one firm now recruiting from 40 places. It just gets pretty hard to filter if your list is too big. Exeter may be getting better but traditionally it was where you went if you were Tim, nice but a bit dimmer than some others, but posh.

Is there a list of the places with the highest entry requirements? Or would that not help if first and second tier places want people with AAA or even A*? That might be one way to check the better places - the harder to get into the better they are and the more likely the students are good.

@bonsoir well, maybe you were at a webinar. But last week I was in Cyprus, the week before New York, next week Edinburgh, the week after Luxembourg, the week after that MALTA (and that's June done) and so on. As I said I work for a large international firm, in an international role that includes oversight of recruitment and HR policies and I can assure you Kings and UCL do not feature at all in the desirability stakes and Exeter is considered very very highly (and yes this does amaze me, it's nothing to do with my influence but there you go, as part of my oversight role I question and challenge but I don't make the policy). The ICAEW also thinks very very highly of Exeter as do many international banks. I can't imagine say international pharma thinks of it very highly after the hoohah with the dumping of chem degrees but for its areas of expertise it is well regarded.

I write and present webinars, incidentally. Please don't regard them as gospel.

There's no list as such Xenia but anyone keeping up with HE will know, at least broadly. At the moment there sems to be something akin to the arms race in outdoing each other with requirements for A* at A2. Oxford is holding steadier. Durham and Exeter (etc.), not so much.

Maybe you could say what area you work in, Metabilis3? What you write does not in any way concur with the recruitment policies that I know of but we may be talking about very different industries.