How much shouting you seem acceptable in the classroom?

[BerryCheesecake]

Don't want to out myself so will try and keep details to a minimum.

There is a member of staff at the school I work at who shouts a lot at her class. I know there were chunterings on the playground when the children first started as many of them ( they are 8) were not used to such shouting etc. There are also comments made such as "X is really annoying me today" or "A is always silly, he doesn't know how to be sensible" etc in front of the children. She definitely has the reputation as the 'scary' teacher (she doesn't deny this) but after witnessing it myself I was really shocked. The children just accept it now which is rather :(. We are two form entry and unoffically we have heard children are only put in her class if they can 'handle' the shouting .

I did consider going to the head but they are both on the leadership team and are very good friends. Getting on the wrong side of her would be a nightmare, i wouldnt even dare disagree with her. I like her as a person and we get on well but knowing what goes on in class is a tricky situation. Is it acceptable for children to be shouted at like this? I personally feel its not but my class are tiny and I don't shout (unless in an extreme circumstance). I know She thinks I am too soft but my class are happy and well behaved despite the fact I don't shout at them. I don't think she understands this and says I am too nice to them.

I don't want to upset anyone or cause a problem but my primary concern is the children and some of the little ones heading her way next year will not be able to handle daily shouting. I think it's just been brushed user the carpet. All staff know what goes on in her room and no-one does anything about it so maybe I am over reacting?

Am a bit wary of posting this as I don't know if I've given too much away. If people feel its inappropriate or at all identifiable I will ask MN to remove it.

Thanks for reading if you've got this far.

No it's not acceptable. I teach science to yrs 9-13 and I very rarely shout even at them.

I would be extremely unhappy to know that my chld was being shouted at in school when it is something he is not used to at home. No child should go to school to be scared.

I have a reputation for being strict but fair according to the kids, which is finely me, but I'd be thinking about my teaching if I was thought of as scary and shouted all the time!

I would have to say something, but I can totally understand if you felt you couldn't. I would just hate it if my child was in a class like that - they shouldn't have to be able to "handle" her shouting, after all!

Coming at this as a parent. At our dc's primary school there was one teacher (deputy head) who was just like this and who also picked out a few children at the beginning of the year who she really didn't like (and they were usually the popular, very bright ones) to really be nasty to and pull down a peg or two. There was also a rumour at the time that if anyone complained about her, their children would suffer more because she always found out.

Our ds ended up crying himself to sleep and having a tummy ache every morning. I made a note of a couple of incidents and ones with witnesses too. I had a meeting with the head and then a meeting with her and the head. She was rumbled. The next year more parents complained formally too and a year later she was taken off teaching. Arguably she was the worst and rudest teacher I have ever come across.

If you are going to complain, you must have evidence and witnesses.

Is there any way you can take some video or audio footage of her shouting in the classroom? Because she can't deny that surely?

I'm not condoning a shouty teacher per se, but does her class achieve on the whole? Do the children seem unhappy? Does she have more than her fair share of 'problem' children to deal with, and is that why they are given to her, because they won't listen to the softly spoken teachers? Age 8 is so different to foundation children...I can understand how it must seem. I had to help in foundation the other day, I hadn't been in those classes for ages, and it was so strange to not have to raise my voice and to be able to talk in a sweet and lovely way AND get listened to.

Different people teach in different ways. If it works, the kids aren't going to be scarred by a loud voice now and then. No good teacher walks into class with the intention of terrifying them into line, but then, I don't class a raised voice as terrifying to an eight year old.

There's a difference between raising your voice in class, and the situation married has described, too. It's a huge leap to assume this teacher is like that teacher.

And the suggestion of covertly recording a colleague is ludicrous. If someone tried that with me, you can be damn sure it wouldn't be me who was losing my job.

I think what you are describing sounds like verbal abuse TBH ( awaits flaming as usual).

I absolutely agree that children should not be going to school scared of anyone, be it adult or child.

OP you sound like a lovely teacher and I am sorry that the oppression this woman causes is also affecting you in that you are scared to address it

If I learned that my child was being shouted at on a daily basis or was witnessing other children being bullied in this way then I would be doing something about it. If there was a fear that my child would be worse off after I complained then I would remove him from school, explain this to the education authority and advise he would reutrn when they had addressed the entire situation.

It is not easy to challenge these types of behaviours, but I ask you to cnsider how the children will be feeling in all of this. They will feel even more powerless than you to do something about it.

The other issue which is jumpin g out at me is that you are concerned because of this teacher's relationship with the HT. This is not a healthy working environment and is IMO dangerous if people feel that the HT relationship with particualt memebers of staff would prevent them from raising genuine concerns about practice.........sounds like a clear out would be good for your school ( with OP definitely staying )

Hope you can find a way to address this issue as it must be awful to have to go to school evey day knowing that there will be shouting all day, and awful for you to be carrying this worry around with you.

IMO gut feeling is usually a good marker for if things need to be sorted. Good luck and thank you for being attentive to the feelings/needs of the children

I agree with jamdonut. Think it depends on the class? I have been with a P1 class this term and it was great to be able to try out the "getting quieter until they listen" thing and have it actually work!!!

Raising your voice occasionally is a different situation to what the OP is describing. Occasional loudness may just be what is needed, although I do persnally believe there ar eother ways of eliciting the same result.

Shouting for most of the day at kids is just not effective. The more you shout, the less they listen.They probably stopped listening after the 1st day!

I suppose there's shouting to get attention/be heard, there's shouting to tell off bad behaviour, and then there's shouting all the time instead of talking. What is the comtext of the shouting in the situation you mention, OP?

My ds1's class have 'had it good' all through primary, and have had gentle, quiet teachers. I know that some other teachers in the school have a different style and do raise their voices more, but they haven't had these teachers yet. This year, once a week, they've had a more shouty, more disciplinarian (maybe more old fashioned?) teacher. And by the reactions of some of the parents you'd think their children were being dragged around the yard by their ears or something! Complete outrage that the teacher had dared raise her voice at their babies. The kids who sit still, listen, and do the work don't get shouted at... Are people forgetting their own school days?

I prefer non-shouty teachers as long as the work is getting done. But for shouty teachers I think context is important. We can't set up kids to be shocked by the world once they leave school.

Are we talking ANGRY shouting or 'raising your voice to get attention' shouting?
There is a huge difference.
I am a loud shouty type of teacher, I have a colleague who rarely shouts like you. (Secondary age).
We are successful for different reasons and liked/preferred by different students for different reasons- some find her calming and reliably stable, others find her patronising and borin, some find me exciting and fun, others find me 'argumentative and unsettling'. Its just personality differences.
We both get good results.
I will shout , 'right, enough chit chat, lets get on with it' rather than always waiting calmly with my hand in the air for silence.

If that kind of shouting is happening, and the teacher you describe is liked by (some) children and getting good results, then I am not sure what there is that you are worried about- its just her style. However, if she is VERY angry when shouting, students on the whole dislike her and she sems out of control emotionally, then I don't think there is any place for that. She sounds impatient perhaps- and needs some retraining for more age-appropriate techniques.
Your gut-feeling is important- but I would be surprised if you are the only one ntoicing and no one else thinks its an issue.
Is there a way to observe her teaching more closely to really establish what is going on?

*noticing

sorry- xpost welliesandpyjamas

It's ok, klicklack I think we're all xposting at the moment

No we can't set them up to be schocked by the world but we can raise them to expect to be respected and to respect in return.

I also don't think that shouting at 'bad' behaviour is very productive either tbh.

My son too has had lovely teachers so far and I have fantastic relationship with the school, but I know that if he was in a class where children were being shouted at all the time, even if he wasn't the one in trouble, he would be upset by it (SN) and would take lots of reassurance to let him know it wasn't him. I am sure he is not alone in this.

We don't shout at home, it's not necessary and we do have firm boundaries and DS is generally very well behaved. When he is not we use creative ways of showing him what is right/wrong and use natural consequences alot. It seems to work.

Class is different obvously from 1 child, but I have worked in large residential unit and can say that shouting didn't work there either. I think if you can turn things on their head and do something 'outside the box' you are more likely to capture the attention of the children and help them to refocus.

The big issue for me in terms of control in the classroom is that too many adults try to control children, when in fact what we need to be doing together ( parents/teachers) is to teach children to control themselves..........

One of students wrote 'Miss you're scary' on a piece of paper and I pinned it on the wall (Y11).
Great reputation to have in secondary (in some ways)- but think about it- I am really so scary - if I was she wouldn't do that would she?
And I am actually much soft-hearted and caring than the other teacher. I keep plugging away with the gobby kids (that I understand wuite well) when she has had enough and despises them. (I am not exaggerating).

I agree with teachign children to control themselves. But kids do need to be told what the boundaries are as they are still learning.
Also agree about not shouting around SEN- absolutely.
But do not agree that there is never a place for shouting/ raised voice.

Unfortunately 32 14 year olds in a room does require crowd control techniques at times- especially if a wasp comes in the room!
A a million other possibilities that will be relayed by students as 'Miss shouted really loud today and it made me jump' when the start of the story should be, 'a wasp got in the room, the girls started screaming and pushing to get away, causing someone to fall off their chair and then...Miss shouted really loud and it made me jump'

I'm a teacher and very rarely shout except to be heard over a rowdy class! I never shout to scare or reprimand a child - it's just bullying, esp if they are quite little still. It's terrifying to be shouted at by someone much bigger than you.
You shouldn't hesitate to speak to the head if you are genuinely concerned. If they do not address the issue satisfactorily, I would consider speaking to a Governor.

The only detail the OP has given about the frequency and situation of the shouting is to say "a lot", and that she was "shocked".

That leaves an awful lot of room for interpretation, and to start painting the teacher as verbally abusive is a phenomenal leap.

Good grief.

Berrycheesecake- you refer to her 'daily shouting'- as if you hear it- so what is she saying when she's shouting?
The comments about the children are pretty normal- but actually on re-reading your post, saying those thing IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN is completely unacceptable. (Which is unrelated to the shouting) She sounds like she needs some more training. The most important aspects of all teaching is the nature of the relationships between the 'student' and teacher.

A good teacher shouldn't need to shout. I've worked with a 'shouty teacher', the noise levels in her class actually made some children ill. I used to get regular headaches too. If the teacher brings his/her own volume down, and is good at their job, the children's volume comes down too.

I'm not talking about the odd incident like the wasp though. I mean regular shouting.

ishockers that is interesting. What sort of shouting do we mean- examples??

If the teacher brings his/her own volume down, and is good at their job, the children's volume comes down too. I agree.
But good teachers can also shout and still be good as well.

More or less everything she said was in a shouty, irritable voice. She would also shout without looking properly so that children were blamed for things they hadn't done. There was never an apology, just more shouting..."Well if so and so wasn't distracting me I would have realised you were just putting a book back..." etc. The volume in the class was intolerable. I was working on inclusion with a boy with Autism... I regularly had to take him out of the class as he would be weeping , with his hands over his ears. He wasn't the only one who was upset by the noise either.

I was with the same class two years later, with a different teacher... the difference was remarkable! There was a lot more learning going on!

I agree that good teachers could shout and still be good teachers... but if they need to shout, a lot, I would be inclined to think they're in the wrong job.

Tbh I think it's more of a whole attitude rather than just telling her class to be quiet. She shouts for various things. Her class are not that badly behaved, infact they are rather good because they are scared of her.

One time, one of her class wrote her a story with a little message on the front saying "dear mrs X I hope you like my story love Y". I saw it on her desk and asked and she told me not to bother reading it as it was from 'y' and wouldn't be very good. That made me feel more
:( than but i read it and made a point of telling the little girl I loved her story. How could you say that about someone
Without even looking at it :(. For the record, I know that she wasn't breaking any rules eyc by doing that but I just found it incredibly sad.