How much shouting you seem acceptable in the classroom?

[BerryCheesecake]

Don't want to out myself so will try and keep details to a minimum.

There is a member of staff at the school I work at who shouts a lot at her class. I know there were chunterings on the playground when the children first started as many of them ( they are 8) were not used to such shouting etc. There are also comments made such as "X is really annoying me today" or "A is always silly, he doesn't know how to be sensible" etc in front of the children. She definitely has the reputation as the 'scary' teacher (she doesn't deny this) but after witnessing it myself I was really shocked. The children just accept it now which is rather :(. We are two form entry and unoffically we have heard children are only put in her class if they can 'handle' the shouting .

I did consider going to the head but they are both on the leadership team and are very good friends. Getting on the wrong side of her would be a nightmare, i wouldnt even dare disagree with her. I like her as a person and we get on well but knowing what goes on in class is a tricky situation. Is it acceptable for children to be shouted at like this? I personally feel its not but my class are tiny and I don't shout (unless in an extreme circumstance). I know She thinks I am too soft but my class are happy and well behaved despite the fact I don't shout at them. I don't think she understands this and says I am too nice to them.

I don't want to upset anyone or cause a problem but my primary concern is the children and some of the little ones heading her way next year will not be able to handle daily shouting. I think it's just been brushed user the carpet. All staff know what goes on in her room and no-one does anything about it so maybe I am over reacting?

Am a bit wary of posting this as I don't know if I've given too much away. If people feel its inappropriate or at all identifiable I will ask MN to remove it.

Thanks for reading if you've got this far.

I teach children with severe behavioural difficulties and NEVER shout in genuine anger.

I am very firm, will raise my voice to get attention if necessary and will shout bloody loudly if I spot somebody about to do something dangerous and I want to shock them into stopping.

If I need to express anger to a child to make them see that something they have done is very wrong I would do it in a 'deep river of calm' sort of way much scarier. If I did feel genuine anger towards a child (and TBH I'm racking my brain to think of a time I ever have and am not coming up with anything) I would never let them see it. I think it is bad practice to display flash of emotion 'lost it' sort of anger in the classroom.

I'd worry about how well a teacher who regularly felt genuine anger towards children was coping. Some of the adults on the other hand, make me insane with rage.

The shouting doesn't seem to be the issue per se - it's the words which are coming out of her mouth which are the issue.

I was a teacher (secondary) and I shouted. As a parent of 3 small boys I shout. But it's over and done with and very rarely so personal and attacking as the experiences on this thread.

Equating shouting with bullying and verbal abuse is just so utterly precious.

boneyback I just think that the language we use says a lot about our value base..............And some of comments on this whole website, not just this thread make me feel really sad about how children are sometimes thought of by their teachers. Dignity, respect and individuality are not the values I see come through at times. Children are little people and should be treated as such. If you don't like children, do not choose a career working with them! (this applies to all professions involved with children, not just teaching).

And for those who go on about parents being precious about their children.............IMO every child should be treated as precious!

I will leave it at that.

captainbarnacle So whe you have your annual review ( or whatever the term is used in your school) do you talk about shouting as being a positive intervention? Thought not.

I think it is shocking that you, in a position of power ( whether you like it or not) find it acceptable to shout in anger at children. It IS bullkying and it IS verbal abuse and IT IS NOT acceptable.

I think you will find the Education Inspectorate folks ( not sure where you are so nit sure exactly which organisation ) agree with me, not you. I doubt very much if you would be prepared to have a discussion with an inspector on the pros of a great shouting session.

The fact that you do it with your own children does not make it ok. The fact that you do sometimes make it a personal and attacking experience and think this is ok calls both your parenting and teaching skills into question IMO. How horrible!

Who said shouting has to be done 'in anger'?

Well I'm interested as to all the reasons you are sahouty both at home and in school??

Can't imagine that your children are so loud you need to shout as a way of speaking? If you do then there is a problem with your style of parenting/teaching IMO.

An occasional yell to stop a child doing something dangerous is ok.........can't really think of another reason other than anger TBH.......

I think that the universities should introduce a new module into their teaching courses.........How to think outside the box - classroom management :)

gettinghappy that is quite A HARSH summary of captainbarnacle- who died and made you Queen??

In reali life if a student bahves in a completely unacceptable way that makes you very frustrated- not really angry angry shouting has a place. It is not abuse. I am talking students about to go into work/ leave school. That sometimes happens in the real world. It is not my job to pretend that their behaviour is Ok, or to always act in a unrealistically calm way. I absolutely agree that there should be no real anger- but I teach in the real world and sometimes the kids do make me mometarily angry.
These are kids I have taught for 2 years- I love them all and work my ass off for them. I really put everything into my lessons, explain my reasoning, support them and am endlessly patient. I buy them sweets, listen to their stories, we alugh together, argue together and have a great time. Sometimes a student will push things too far- e.g. interrupting at a crucial time when given amny chances, whilst also being personal and attacking to me ('you are crap at explaining this') when they are not actually listening to the explanation for example.
I am human. The 'angry, shouted response from me, 'How dare you speak to me like that' kind of thing, is a response that is normal- in the context of this REAL relationship that is the key to stuents success.
I would tehn take the student outside and explain calmly what the problem is, explain my response and frustration. Because they are kids they do not alwsys get it- but handling emotions and talking about them0- including anger- is relevant, and REAL.
I do not equate this with ABUSE. But also I do not think the above scenario should happen very often.
You simply cannot observe anyone's lesson, or read a comment about 'shouting' and judge that lesson or that person without the full knowledge of what has happened in that classroom/ in that teacher's career.
However, what shocker describes- bottom of page 1- is not OK and I think that person should be retrained.
That is not what I do in my lesson. But I do genuinely care about my kids and sometimes care so much that I feel REAL emotions- I am not a machine!!

There are a number of different strategies to use in different scenarios in classroom and home. Like others have said above, there is the 'we're all going to die' shouting voice you can use in situations of peril. There is also the 'right! Time to move onto the next stage of the lesson!' voice. There is the 'get a move on! Stop being so bloomin slow! Ive had enough!' parenting voice.

Sounds like your repertoire is tired and monotonous.

Bullying and verbal abuse do not need shouting to facilitate them. Like I said, it's not the shouting which is a big issue, but the words coming out of your mouth.

Captain I am sorry, I don't mean to be harsh but I still don't see the need for shouting. You said yourself ,' I was a teacher (secondary) and I shouted. As a parent of 3 small boys I shout. But it's over and done with and very rarely so personal and attacking as the experiences on this thread.'

Any personal and attacking type shouting IS abuse.

I agree that shouting isn't the only form of bullying/abuse that can happen in the classroom or anywhere else for that matter and that it can be far more discreet and underhand. That is IMO no more acceptable and also needs addressing.

This thread is about shouting in the classroom though. IMO The teacher described in the OP should not be allowed to be in charge of children. If her manner is, as described then I do believe this to be an abusive environment for these children, difficult behavours or not.

I also stated that I have no problem with the OCCASIONAL shout in order to keep someone safe. I did not dispute that in the slightest.

I will stick with my belief however that if you find yourself shouting every day, then maybe looking at alternaitves would be prudent. How would you like to be shouted at every day?

KlickKlak Lovely to know that you do care about the kids you work with and that you connect emotionally with them. However being an adult IMO means that we role model for children and young people how to respond appropriately and within the bounds of our society when we feel a whole range of emotions. And I don't think in ANY workplace, that shouting at colleagues, even if we are fuming/worried or feeling any other emotion is acceptable.

Would like to add that I feel real emotion in relation to my DS as you would expect of a caring, in tune mum. However I don't shout at him..........I don't need to. I use alternative strategies.

I have worked in a classroom situation and TBH it is not for me. I am social work trained and from all of my experiences both recent and historic SW and Education are worlds apart when it comes to managing/nurturing children. However I have worked in a very large children's unit with a 16, very challenging teenagers and still had no need to shout other than the occasional one-off to stop a young person doing something dangerous............

I do think that shouting in the classroom should be kept to a very bare minimum. If a child is so out of order you find youself shouting at them ( in anger) then chances are the child is not listening and not absorbing what you are shouting at them anyway. You may feel a bit better for getting it out, but it won't have been effective.

gettinghappy I actually agree that shouting is not effective (except in danger situations) but it does happen, it is a real part of life, teachers are not machines and shouting from time to time, is normal.
We should not judge anyone- including who the OP refers to- on such limited info. The principle is right, but real life is more complex.

Thanks KlickKlak. I agree life is complex. it is. However as professionals we are all accountable for our practice and behaviour and sorry but if my child was in the class of the teacher described in the OP, I would be making a complaint and if no change was evident then I would pull him from the class.

My son ( or any other child in my care for that matter) will not be subjected to shouting like was described on a daily basis.........simple.

Sorry for the mis-spelling KlickKlack

I find a controlled raised voice is enough to keep my Y5s in line, but they're a pretty good bunch. I had a horrible set last year and a couple of times I did shout, and I had to admit to myself them that I'd lost it - it was horrible.

I find that shouting at a child isn't needed and that if you really want a child to consider their actions/feel guilty, you lower your voice right down and speak to them very calmly and personally. Annoyingly, I have a couple of smirkers this year and I have to say it drives me mad - it's quite an effort to calmly tell them to take time out and make it up at break, rather than yell "AND YOU CAN GET THAT SMILE OFF YOUR FACE, BOY!" in the style of my old teacher. :)

gettinghappy

"I just think that the language we use says a lot about our value base"

It also says alot about where we work.

"IMO every child should be treated as precious!"

But which child is more precious when one is holding the scissors and the other is having their hair cut?

On the one hand the teacher is wrong for not stopping the hair cutting, and on the other is wrong for shouting at a child to stop.

different situations require different responses, I will choose the one that I see as being the most fitting.

If that means being called a bully by a judgemental parent and getting thanked by the other for their child not getting hurt I know what I will do.

All behaviour management techniques could be classed as bullying.
They are all repetitive interventions that a child isn't going to like. Using any technique to change a child's behaviour is manipulation, usually emotional.

Pretending that isn't the case is naive, but labelling them so negatively is emotive and destructive.

Fermez... thank goodness for someone else with some sense :)

BBJ Actually both children ARE precious, maybe not to you. I would certainly stop the haircutting and that COULD be one situation where a quick raised voice may be necessary, depending on the proximity/sharpness of the scissors. Hair will regrow but I am not suggesting you let children cut the hair of others. If they are being used aggressively then a quick loud stop MAY help, but maybe not. However it is entirely possible that that situation could be resolved without any shouting. You unfortunately you feel that shouting is a positive strategy, I do not and won't be convinced that it is. And for that I will not apologise. Because you have teaching certificate/degree does not give you free reign to treat children however you like and depending on your mood. You are aprofessional and I refer you back to my prevoius post where I asked if you discuss shouting as a positive strategy/intervention with Inspectors or at your annual review. You have not responded to this...........

Sunscorch You say,'All behaviour management techniques could be classed as bullying.They are all repetitive interventions that a child isn't going to like. Using any technique to change a child's behaviour is manipulation, usually emotional.' Not sur ewhich behaviour management courses you have been on, but I would completely refute this comment. I have been on several different behaviour management courses, all different styles, for different children and they are not all negative experiences for children.

I recently asked the HT of DS school what training was available to teaching and support staff to support them in managing challenging behaviour within the classroom. She basically told me that there wasn't. That teachers get experience when doing their placements (you have to hope that the teacher they are learning from is effective and attuned to the needs of the challenging child in that class and has an understanding of WHY the child is responding in the way he/she is and how best to support and encourage positive change)and that there may be 1 module in the degree.

There are more and more children in classes with very complex behaviours, for many reasons. They may have SN, may have experienced neglect or abuse historically or may have really crap home lives at the present time. Unfortunately there is an expectation that teachers will be faced with and deal with difficulties that would not have been expected in the past. In recognition of this there needs to be more training available to them IMO in order to support them in what is a very complex and challenging job.................

Re the shouting either you think it's ok to shout and bawl at kids or not. I am in the not category........

Happy, can you outline some behavioural management techniques that don't involve manipulating children into following your expectations?

gettinghappy Would like to add that I feel real emotion in relation to my DS as you would expect of a caring, in tune mum. However I don't shout at him..........I don't need to. I use alternative strategies. Are the alternative strategies being really patronising and demanding that you are right ALL THE TIME?

I have worked in a classroom situation and TBH it is not for me. I am social work trained and from all of my experiences both recent and historic SW and Education are worlds apart when it comes to managing/nurturing children. However I have worked in a very large children's unit with a 16, very challenging teenagers and still had no need to shout other than the occasional one-off to stop a young person doing something dangerous............ You have worked in a classroom and decided its not for you- that may be because you set unrealistically high standards for yourself and everyone around you. You are Sw trained but I assume from the use of past tense no longer in that field either. Teachers work day in day out with children who are all precious. But sometimes they shout- and sometimes its because they are angry. And yes- that may be wrong- based on psychobabble textbook theories about self esteem, self worth and self control. But in the REAL WORLD it goes on, no one dies, no one is scarred for life and yes- GOOD TEACHERS MAKE mistakes.

I am sorry but your dogmatic, dictatorial and patronising comments summarise what the ridiculous expectations some people have about education.

berry what are you actually going to do next anyway?
I think we all agreed that this needs further investigation.

If you hadn't posted about a girl writing a story I would have thought you were posting about my ds's current year 3 teacher. Geographical area is correct too along with other details. I posted about her under a different name and was roundly told by posters who are teachers that it must be my ds and his classmate's problem not the teacher's.

I am moving ds to a different school and others have left mid year too. I have also discovered subsequently that in previous years pupils have left the school because of her. Unfortunately the head knows about the issues (lots of parents have complained) but does nothing about it. Fortunately at the head at ds's new school does not tolerate that sort of behaviour from teachers.

Sorry, errant apostrophe. Should have put classmates' as it is all of ds's class that are affected.

bisjo has anyone complained to the local authority about this teacher? Some people should not teach, and certainly not primary age.
Some teachers loathe kids and only do it for the money (like any job), but unlike the rude doctors receptionist/ office worker/ call centre operative, the 'rude' teacher is a causing serious damage and needs retraining or removing or both.
I know rude is not quite enough, but its kind of ish the same. Rude people are ignorant to the needs of others. I think a lot of teachers on here are young and keen and committed and sometimes can't imagine teachers who are not the same. But also, some parents have over high expectations of teachers (see my earlier V-long post).

No, it's a private school. Voting with my feet is the only option if the head won't address the issue. I've been completely candid with the new school as I know the report ds's current teacher will write is going to be absolutely rubbish and I don't want them to rely on it as an accurate assessment of ds.

Blimey- I would have thought they would have just got rid- its costing them money after all.
Maybe that's why you got told it must be your ds.
I think teaching is such a demanding job and its easy to forget the sensitivities and differences between all the kids we teach. (Even in a private school). Really we should get an hour each day (when not eating etc) to share, and help each other (supervision they call it in SW and psychotherapy stuff). Teachers do get things wrong, and are human, but few teacher managers are skilled at handling the complex conversations needed to get teachers to review and change their strategies. As gettinghappy said earlier- its just annual or biannual reviews- which is not enough. I thought Tony Blair was right when he did the Educatiojn x3 speech. It needs to central to everything and we should reduce class sizes and contact time so teachers can do a better job.
But that'll never happen as its too expensive.
Hope the new place is much better.

bi-annual biennial?