Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

I totally agree with you about the tutoring Mumzy, and I hope the new admissions system at the girls school with go some way to addressing it - I think it will give locals an advantage as local schools will get to know exactly what the school is looking for. I would prefer to see a test that it is not possible to tutor for, but that is another debate...

If anyone had suggested to me that we didn't go on our summer holiday the summer before DD1 did her 11+ I would have been appalled. And I wouldn't have listened. I did buy one of those revision books you see in WH Smtihs which had so called 10 minute Maths tests in it and suggested to her she might want to do 10 minutes a day. She did about 3 the whole time we were away.

What she did instead was plenty of falling off surf boards, lots of music, and she read lorry loads of books. Par for the course. I expect the books certainly helped, the rest probably didn't but hey, it was her holiday too.

As far as I can see the other grammar schools with catchments are in areas where there are a fair number of grammar schools. The two remaining grammars in Kingston are an anomaly, it is not a grammar school area therefore you cannot argue for a proximity rule.

This is a circular argument. Kingston is a grammar school area; it still has the only 2 grammar schools that it has ever had since becoming an LEA in 1965. The only reason it could be argued that Kingston is not a grammar school area is that these 2 grammar schools have now opened their doors to all and sundry.

The word 'area' was missed from my earlier post. It should read as follows.

Now that all schools are their own admission authority, the distinction of grammar and non-grammar 'area' is finished.

I know it is irritating for you to think that Tiffins at some time would have to look after local children....... just as other grammars are doing. Perhaps you would read what the HT of King Edwards, Chelmsford had to say in this regard.

FYI, The Chelmsford and Reading grammars changed their policies from this year and Langley changed last year. Reading grammars and Langley are now 100% catchment. Chelmsford grammars are 80% catchment.

We are not seeking catchment, to be fair. We are campaigning for 80% places to be allocated on proximity, until all grammars are open selective, so that children of Kingston get some level playing field.

What would be good would be that parents whose child has been accepted at Tiffins (and other private/selective schools) to give up their 'state' school place asap to get the waiting lists moving for children who have not been offered a place at their nearest secondary !

You've paid for all the tutoring , you've paid your fee now give up your state place and stop keeping your 'options open' .

Bloody annoying - rant over - as you were !

You do not understand. A grammar school area is not defined by having one or two grammar schools. OP is attempting to argue (albeit incorrectly) that all other grammar schools have catchments. I was merely pointing out that the areas she refers to still operate the previous system of grammar schools and comp/high schools and not the wholesale change that many other areas, including the whole of London were subject to in the 1970s. Therefore the two Tiffin schools are not in a borough where the "old" system still operates. In my view the LEA would have preferred them to become comprehensive but that is a moot point as TGS is now an academy and receives direct funding. To compare them with other areas is therefore incorrect - not that I particularly care what happens in other areas; it is a rather weak and petty argument in my view.

We are not seeking catchment, to be fair. We are campaigning for 80% places to be allocated on proximity, until all grammars are open selective, so that children of Kingston get some level playing field.

While I feel you have every right to complain and lobby for what you want in you local area (and feel it is outrageous for others to suggest that you move), I really don't think you have thought it through.

If you want all children who live in Kingston who attain a certain pass mark to have a chance of a place, you absolutely have to have a catchment which includes the whole of Kingston. Otherwise, if you allocate on proximity, children living in the south of the borough will be excluded in preference to out-borough children living nearer (and not necessarily very near) the school.

OP if it was on proximity to the school then the girls in the south of Kingston would be excluded in favour of those in Richmond.

By coaches parked outside the school do you mean the two minibuses that parents from slough have arranged for them to save travel costs? Or do you mean the coaches there on an afternoon to take the boys to their games afternoon?

I think you need to get your facts straight before posting such claims.

Frankly, until there are good schools in all areas, not necessarily grammars, people are going to be attracted to schools outside their own area. I don't like my DD travelling a long way but I thought she would be bullied in local schools, which was my main motivation for the original application. Academically she would have done well anywhere. Tiffin Girls' has been a brilliant school and the right one for her. However If she was 10 now, instead of 16, we probably would apply to my local comp as it has improved immensely in the last few years - it one of the best performing schools, does Latin, sends kids to Oxbridge - my other daughter now goes there. The top stream which she in is easily equivalent to Tiffin Girls and frankly some of the teaching is better, as well as the overall school facilities.

You cannot blame families for wanting the best and until all local schools are good schools, people will apply to schools with open selection, even if it means years of tutoring, or under the system OP is proposing, potent to "cheat" and buy or rent in the catchment areas. Unfortunately arguing about catchment areas or who has the "right" to attend a good school will not solve the problem.

You do not understand. A grammar school area is not defined by having one or two grammar schools.

It depends on the size of the LEA whether one or 2 grammar schools make it a grammar school area. Kingston is small and the 2 grammar schools in Kingston would have enough places for around 17% of Kingston children.

I agree that OP is mistaken in saying that all other grammar schools have catchments and she needs to put more effort into researching the position.

I was merely pointing out that the areas she refers to still operate the previous system of grammar schools and comp/high schools and not the wholesale change that many other areas, including the whole of London were subject to in the 1970s. Therefore the two Tiffin schools are not in a borough where the "old" system still operates.

But you are wrong. They are in a borough where the old system operates. The fact that all the surrounding boroughs have changed their systems is irrelevant. If Kingston Council would have preferred them to become comprehensive, they had over 40 years to make that change; they chose not to.

I work with someone who used to work for the LEA many years ago who was also a Tiffin parent and apparently they did try to get rid of the grammars but one of the schools at least threatened to go private. There is a whole history to this of attempting to admit more local children and then not and so on.

I really don't care if schools have catchment areas or not, but I think OP is completely wrong on the facts and the history that has led to this.

The definition I would use for grammar school area is where the 11 plus is available to a wide range - such as Bucks, Berks, Kent, Essex etc.

We know that if Tiffins do not adopt to the reasonable local demand, consequences could be similar to Reading.

We are also aware that the majority group in the Kingston Council is ideologically opposed to the selective schools. If Tiffins keep itself totally isolated from local community as at present and say that 'local children are not our responsibility. These are not our children' then I am afraid they would soon rock the boat. All it needs, as Reading has demonstrated, is 10 parents to requisition parental ballots. And if this happens, unlike Reading, Kingston Council's majority group would support this action. We know that many parents in the local area would like to do this as the Council previously attempted. It's parent like us who stopped that from happening.

We support Grammars in Kingston - we are not saying Tiffins for Kingston. We are campaigning for proximity criteria for 80% places only (not 100%); and also not for 100% Kingston based catchment. You can very well work it out that proximity would take the likely admission radius to cover many parts of other boroughs, e.g Richmond, Elmbridge, Sutton and Merton.

We hope that Tiffins would soon realize the fairness of our proposal.

What is wrong in the following statements.

1. Most grammars have catchment/proximity. A whole list is given in earlier post.

1. Like-wise, we want Tiffin to give priority to those living nearer to the school. We are campainging for 20% open places and 80% places on proximity basis to those who have selective ability.

1. Kingston is not responsible for all the rest of the areas, if they do not have grammar or good school.

What an unpleasant person you are - threaten and blackmail if you can't get your own way., So if the school doesn't do exactly what you want - change the rules to favour your personal circumstances there will be "consequences". There is no law that I am aware of that forces schools to admit local kids and the school is no longer under LA control.

You appear to be threatening to orchestrate a ballot on selective status. If your kids can't go to a selective school - no one can - you prefer to destroy it for those able enough to get in. If you want to convert the Tiffin schools to bog standard comps go ahead be my guest, my DD will have left in two years time.

Wow what an attitude tiffin! (not in a good way).

Wrote the reply, but the site went offline.

@Beingfluffy: Calm down, Dear! Calm Down.

You are quite a person. You start accusing others without even thinking for a moment.

No, we are not threatening. We are campaignging for proximity rules. Obviosuly, children living far away would be losers; but far more of the children living nearby would gain. We are not campaigning for or aganist any particular child - your DD included.

Yes, we support our grammars and know that it takes just few parents to petition for ballots, as demosntrated in Readings. And based upon our recent communications with Council, we believe that the majority group in the Council would support such change of status of Tiffins.

Children of Kingston and nearby areas have suffered for a long time due to mistatements, misunderstanding and inaction of the Council/LA.

We believe that Tiffins should now look ahead and adopt the proximity rules, which were cleared even by the Judicial Review.

@cecilyP

Please re-read my OP and other posts. I used the words 'almost all' in OP and there-on 'most'. I have not said that 'All' the grammars have catchment/proximity rules. Your response is, therefore, based on wrong presumptions. Hope that this clafies.

Oh dear, not again.

Not clafies - it should be clarifies.

@cecilyP

My friend just called me to correct me.

Even in my OP, I used the words 'most of the grammars' and not 'All the grammars'.

I stand corrected. Thanks

Latymer does have a catchment area but effectively is the whole of north and some of east london - see below criteria

1. Those who live in the following postcode areas; there is no preference within this list.

E2, E4, E5, E8, E9, E17 EN1, EN2, EN3, EN4, EN5 (Sectors 1, 2, 4, 5 only), EN8 (Sectors 7, 8, 9 only) N1, N2, N3, N4, N5, N6, N7, N8, N9, N10, N11, N12, N13, N14, N15, N16, N17, N18, N19, N20, N21, N22

This is a massive catchment area when you take into acccount the population density. Kids from chingford, enfield and islington and hackney. The entrance procedure is skewed to favour natural ability through precedence being given to nvr performance rather than english and maths. This is to give kids that havent been tutored but are naturally bright more of an opportunity to get in.

op you are proposing that tiffins should favour the wealthier kingston residents

You need to stop comparing Tiffin with the Kent and Bucks grammars, they are not the same thing.

You mention the petition that was generated in Reading. That was laughable, and it got virtually no local support, except from those parents who were clearly upset that their children didn't get in, or weren't even entered because they stood no chance of getting in. They seemed to be under the same illusion you are under. If the selection criteria is changed, they won't be the same schools and they won't get the same results because they won't have the same calibre of students.

I don't think what you are hoping for will make the difference you expect it to make. I only really know about Reading School, but there are plenty of people who feel it does not serve local children because the majority of children there come from other LAs, other boroughs, other counties. The catchment is so huge that it's worthless, children from outside the catchment wouldn't even be able to get to school, do a days work and get home again. Even those on the outskirts are a long way away.

And if you want to apply from put of catchment, you can do so as a boarder.

Op - who are 'we' in this thread? I have yet to see anyone in this thread who supports your proposals. Who other than you actually wants these changes?

Oh dear oh dear! This is a very heated thread!

It seems that Tiffinboys is being attacked for being the "lone voice" in this by others here who doesn't live in Kingston.

Let me set the record straight, I live in Kingston and near to Tiffin Boys and Girls, my kids attend a local primary - I can assure you that every parent in my son's class (year 4) supports to a degree of what TiffinBoy is advocating. Now there are four year 4 classes in my son's school and I would dare wage a big sum of money that the majority of parents of the 3 other classes also supports it, albeit to a varying degree.

So, PLEASE, for a start, don't shoot TiffinBoy down for not having support from the locals - HE DOES! So end this " NO LOCAL SUPPORT " accusation once and for all, especially if you don't live in Kingston, ok?!

Now I have a lot more to say, I would like to argue on the merit of the case, but its past midnight, so I will continue when I have the time.

Thanks.

P/S I do not know TiffinBoy personally, but I sure want to know him now -

TiffinBoy - can we get intouch? I could get around 50 parents to sign up your petition!