Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

Does any one know how to edit a previous post?

you can't edit. You can just ask for it to be deleted.

Nonsuch: This offers 44% on the basis of ability, and (assuming 5 places for SEN/looked after children) roughly 53% on proximity.

Wallington Girls offer 100 based on pure ability and up to 110 on proximity. So pretty much a 50/50 split.

Both are well away from the 80% you want to pressure Tiffins into adopting. Whilst your comment that "most" places are catchment is technically true, one wonders how many more of your "facts" are not as clear cut as you try to make out.

Lol @corian Kingston Jamaica.

Although Kingston has the biggest Korean population in New Malden, and a big Sri Lankan presence too. 60% of girls in dd's class (not TGS!!!) are non-white.

tiffin I'm not arguing from any motive of self-interest at all, since I'm geographically remote from your area, nor am I in need of a grammar school other than the one I'm in the old catchment area for but which is now super-selective, a system I fully support.

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If OP was serious about increasing places for local kids she would be campaigning for a new school build - the one that was planned next to Tiffin Girls' seems to have now been shelved - I have heard rumours recently that the Tiffin schools were considering sponsoring a new school as an academy. Why doesn't she get involved in that instead of wasting the schools' time with FOI requests for this silly campaign, which locally seems to have little or no support.

OP seems obsessed with the idea that the schools are filled with the undeserving from Greenford, Southall, or god forbid, Ealing. I can only judge by my own experience as a Tiffin parent, that the majority of the girls at least in the upper school are local. I also think that excluding those from further away will disproportionately affect ethnic minority applicants.

I think the unofficial feeder schools will be given sufficient information by TGS to enable them to prepare girls adequately for the new style admissions tests and I think that will be to local advantage, as people further away are less likely to have access to that knowledge. My own opinion is that that current NVR/VR tests used to perform the function and local tutors were extremely adept at preparing candidates; however as the information is now more widely known that advantage has evaporated.

Personally I would prefer to see a test based on raw ability as I don't think students whose family cannot afford tutoring or resources should be disadvantaged, but recognise that the schools are looking for highly motivated students and families that really really want them to go there and will support them and the school once they are there.

OP - my old school, HBS, was a normal grammar when I went, with all girls coming from the Borough of Barnet or nearby. At some point within the last decade, that informal catchment - which still existed a decade ago when I phoned up to ask about catchments, when i was told that where she is dojng well. pupils had to live within an hour's travelling time on public transport - has changed, and the school has become superselective. Like you, I prefer catchment grammars - so decided not to send my dd to the hothouse i felt my old school had become, and moved to a diferent area in order to apply for a catchment grammar, where she is now very happy.

What I did not do was start a huge campaign to get the school to run how I wanted it to be.

I see precisely zero evidence on this thread that anyone other than yourself desires the change to Tiffins' current practices.

If you don't like the school as it is, either apply elsewhere or move elsewhere. You've stated that it's ok for kids in other areas like Ealing and Greenford not to have any access to grammar schools at all - why should Kingston be entitled to special access?

The reality is so,e areas have grammars and some have super-selectives and some don't. I'd like to see a return to the situation we had decades ago where every area had a local grammar so all bright kids could get an appropriate education. Fight for that if you want a truly local grammar school. But in the absence of that set-up, there is no logic in restricting entrance to the few grammars we do have - especially as there appears to be no local support at all for this measure.

I have a close friend who moved to Kingston because of the excellent schols. She knows her kids may not make the Tiffins (the eldest is only 4, so who knows!) but isn't too bothered because of the range of good local schools. You have lots of other choices. Stop moaning.

Despite having lived next door to the grammar for decades, I support the idea of open selection in my area because ours is the only grammar in a wide area. And I support every child who could benefit from the education the school provides having a chance to access it. That said, like bread, I'd far rather a decent grammar system was re-introduced nationwide.

@yellowtip it's a 50 mile radius isn't it? But AIUI most of the kids do come from the valley.

Not most, no. But a good number. Increasing numbers from your direction! :)

Well I'm sure developments at St Ms will make more people look in that direction. I'm not looking forward to doing the whole process with DD2 to be honest.

1. If Tiffins should be open selection so that children from every other town from as far away as over 20 miles could come here, why then Langley, Latymer, Reading, Kendrik, Newstead Wood, Ilford County, Woodford County etc are not open selective - why these are 100% catchement based?

1. Why it is Kingston LA area 2 small grammar schools need to make provision for other area's children, when doors are closed for Kingston children there?

1. Most grammar schools are catchment/proximity based. Just by saying it is not correct, does not make any difference.

Kent area - 30plus grammars are 100% proximity based.
Buchinghamshire - all the 13 grammars have first preference for local children.
Newstead in Bromley - 100% catchment based.
Woodford County in Redbridge - 100% catchment based.
Ilford County in Redbridge - 100% catchment based.
Langley in Slough - 100% catchment based
Latymer in Barnet - 100% catchment based
Reading Grammar - 100% catchment based
Kendrik in Reading - 100% catchment based
King Edwards in Chelmsford - 80% catchment based.
Chelmsford Grammar for Girls - 80% catchment based
Nonsuch Girls in Sutton - 100 out of 180 places are catchment based
Wallington Girls in Sutton - 110 of 210 places are catchment based.

any many others (e.g.Birmingham area) - list will go on. In addition, many other grammars have places for local children (Slogh Grammar, Herschel Grammar in Slough) as well many partially selective schools (e.g. Dame Alice Owen, Parmiters, Watford Grammars etc) have 100% selective places on catchment basis. 

Is Tiffins only supposed to have open selection?

1. For those who ask Kingston residents to move out. If local residents/parents do not campaign for local children, who will do it? and why should they move out? I don't see any opposition to 100% catchment in Langley catchment area, for example. So why should people from that area oppose proximity proposals for Tiffins? Note that we have proposed proximity; not Kingston borough based catchment. Hope you understand the difference.

You seem to be the sole representive of this campaign - where is your local support - non existent.

As far as I can see the other grammar schools with catchments are in areas where there are a fair number of grammar schools. The two remaining grammars in Kingston are an anomaly, it is not a grammar school area therefore you cannot argue for a proximity rule.

You seem extremely confused about what you want - you state Tiffin schools should be for Kingston residents. Yet you the say it should be based on proximity. If that was the case girls in south Kingston would probably be excluded anyway as TGS is in the extreme north of the borough. I have told you that the overwhelming majority of girls in my daughter's class at TGS are local. I would say that a substantial number are within a few hundred yards of the school and the overwhelming majority within 3 miles. Yet you still persist in your fantasy that there are coachloads coming from Southall or Greenford.

If schools have a particular admissions policy it is up to them, not for one or two disgruntled parents to be upset that they didn't get in and try and change it. TGS consult on theirs every so often and anyone is free to comment, very few responses are received which makes me think that most are content with the status quo. One of my children goes to TGS, another didn't get in. We were disappointed but accepted it - we didn't run around bleating that it wasn't fair, that they didn't have a sibling policy for example.

There is an excellent catholic school near me which attracts kids from all over London, their admissions are also not proximity based. There is also a shortage of places in my borough and a new school is planned. I don't go running around trying to change the admissions criteria of an excellent school just because my kids can't go there and I am jealous of those that can.

If you want more local school places, get behind the campaign for the new school on the North Kingston site.

If you close your eyes, only then you would se the coaches parked outside the Tiffin School.

If you don't argue for change in the admission policies of your local school, it is upto you. We want change and we are campaigning for that.

You have no answer as to why so over-whelming number of Grammars have catchment/proximity.

It other grammars can look after the interest of their local community, Why Tiffins should not do the same?

The first sentence in the previous post should read as "Only if you close your eyes, only then you will not see the coaches parked outside Tiffin School".

I know someone whose ds got into tiffin this year and I have been utterly shocked by what he's had to do to get a place. He is a vey able child and top of his class in his state primary. From year 4 he was tutored very specifically to pass the allegedly untutorable NVR and VR tests. He went to a tutoring firm for one hour a week then he was given 3x 50 minute pieces of practice homework to do a week. He was given lists and lists of words to rote learn and if he got less than 90% in any test his tutors advised his mum to make him redo them aiming for a score of 95%. His parents were also advised not to go on holiday during the summer holidays at the end of year 5 but to spend the 6 weeks doing at least 5x 50 minute NVR and VR tests each day which they did. I think Tiffin school know the majority of its intake has been subjected to this sort of drilling drilling and should be concerned about the childrens' welfare and the quality of its recent intake due to the narrowest of its test.

And yes he is about of borough child

Sorry meant out of borough child, stupid iPad!

mumzy he might have got a place without the tutoring and even had his parents done the sensible thing, ignored the advice and gone.

The tutoring firm is that much better off though, of course.

tiffin where a grammar is the only one in a wide radius, its fair in these days of high demand to continue a policy of open selection.

Oh God and on top of that 7 years of long distance travelling.............

You don't appear to even know where TGS is. There are no coaches parked outside - the majority of girls are local - get over it. If someone from far away wants a place they compete against everyone else - that is the way the school allocates places and that is fine by me.

You want a five mile radius because that suits you personally yet you want the schools to be for Kingson only - it doesn't make sense. If there was a catchment on distance that for TGS would be largely outside the borough.

"We" appears to be a one person campaign. If you want more local places campaign to build a new school. Campaign to turn the Tiffin schools non selective, you would probably get more support!

I have answered your question as to why some grammars have catchments - it is simply because they are in grammar school areas - Kingston is not a grammar school area. The two schools are an anomaly.

The community of the schools are the children, staff and parents. Random people living with a five mile radius are hardly "the local community". The TGS does share some facilities with people who live nearby and supports other schools.

TGS is a great school not because it is in Kingston, but because it selects the brightest - get over it and get a life.

It is also much more fair that schools cater to local community, like other grammars are doing.

Now that all schools are their own admission authority, the distinction of grammar and non-grammar is finished.

I know it is irritating for you to think that Tiffins at some time would have to look after local children.

No the distinction between grammar and non grammar is not finished. Only grammar schools can select on academic ability. As the Tiffin schools indeed do. What is coming to an end is the control the LA had over schools in their area. Tiffin Girls' like other academies now receive their funding direct.

I imagine if you lived near Oxford University, the LSE or wherever you would be campaigning to make those available for local applicants only as well! And why stop there, what about jobs in the borough only available to Kingston residents, or maybe having to show your Council Tax bill to use the 65 bus route!

Know of another child who also took the same exam last year, lived in Kingston,and again top class, brightest child school has had for years etc he did similar tutoring started in year 5 every week unti the exam in year 6 but didn't do it with such an intensity as the other family. He didn't get in and his mum told me she felt he hadn't been tutored as much the kids who passed!