Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

Beingfluffy said "I think the unofficial feeder schools will be given sufficient information by TGS to enable them to prepare girls adequately for the new style admissions tests and I think that will be to local advantage"

YourLifeSuccess - can I ask you whether your primary school does anything to prepare children for the Tiffin exams? They absolutely do not in Richmond and I would be really surprised to hear it if you tell me they do in Kingston.

I really feel for the bright girls of North Kingston who fail to get in despite being perfectly clever enough to excel at a Grammar school, and find themselves in a secondary school black hole.

YourLifeSuccess - I look forward to hearing what else you have to say...

@YourLifeSuccess -- precisely, well put!!!
@tiffinboys -- i agree with your proposals; get in touch, i support the campaign 100% ...as for that fact so do vast majority of Kingston parents. Tiffins for local children - it's about time.

TropicalFish is right - technical Latymer has a catchment area but it's pretty much the whole of North London, parts of E. London and some of Herts!

This is equally true of Dame Alice Owen for selective entry, unless you are lucky enough to live in a small number of streets that have community entry.

As for the best grammars in the country Henrietta Barnet and QE Boys in Barnet?

As for the best grammars in the country Henrietta Barnet and QE Boys in Barnet?

Open to the WHOLE of London and the rest of the world.. And that includes the Tiffin applicants .

The whole system is flawed. Unless all grammars change at the same time, it makes no sense to have one or two schools changing in isolation. All this moaning about admissions makes it more likely that all grammars will be abolished and the chances of many bright children will be much reduced.

@SchoolFool -- you make very valid points and i do agree 'The whole system is flawed'; there ought to be a single entrance policy that applies to all grammars and is prerequisite for grammar school to qualify for that status. (Ore certainly pan-London at least, like the CAF form application). Then the arguments would cease for good.

@tiffinboys: btw 220 cut off is largely irrelevant, since this will have no bearing when TGS / TS change over and the new entrance / selection criteria are set in place. Actually this will redress the balance, and afford local children a more equal chance of gaining entry to either of the Tiffins. Of course, the down side is that it will inevitably lead to more tutoring over longer periods of time. I know of parents who intend to tutor a girl from age 4 for TGS (and that news came to me via the Midlands); so there you go!!! Reputation of Tiffins spreads far & wide.

? In any event, it's not difficult to do the math superselective is just what it is does just what it says on the tin, 1700 candidates for 140 places is always going to be a challenge for any candidate; whatever criteria you apply, there are more candidates year on year, yet no more places (well, a few at TGS i gather, but not many).

A Co-ed satellite grammar sponsored by the two Tiffins would be a good move for KoT area, since KGS - our only option in Kingston town is independent. (p.s. Don't think grammars will be abolished any time soon; not under Cameron they won't.) Otherwise, the Tiffins should have consolidated sixth forms and freed up more spaces in the lower schools - most top independents have mixed sixth forms nowadays, even Charterhouse / Rugby. Why should this not work equally well for Tiffins?

Btw i don't see why everyone feels so sorry for NK residents specifically; historically, if TLC campaign had been more inclusive across the borough its chances of success would have been greatly elevated. However, these parents fought their vested interest - they wanted the schools all for themselves. (Ditto the proposed new secondary, now scrapped.) Tiffins are not NK-exclusive schools, their origins date back to Fairfield - where the original Victorian building that housed the girls / boys joint school still exists. Shortage of secondary school places in KoT; selective or otherwise is a Kingston borough wide issue & needs to be dealt with as such.

Actually a huge amount of children from the Kingston area go to Tiffin.
From my Sons year group there were at least 16 ( that I know of) who live within a 3-4 mile radius of the school.
From my Daughters year group even more.
Maybe there are lots of bright kids in the area.

I must say I am with Chickydoo. I have a dd in sixth form and the vast majority seem to come from the local area. Bearing in mind that the school is nearly on the border with Richmond, more seem to come from the Kingston side.

Zoffany's idea about a co-ed Sixth form is a good one. DD and I were talking about that the other day. The new Sixth form centre at TGS is crap to put it mildly (much too small) and I think the cliques and bitchiness would be much improved with boys around.

I cannot see any possibility of TGS having a catchment area or losing grammar status - it is now an academy and out of LEA control. I have stated before that I think locals will have an advantage with the new test (as they used to with the old tests before tutoring went "viral").

I think that rather than wasting time trying to force the schools to change, local parents should be putting presure on for the new academy. Whether sponsored by TBS/TGS or not. Will anyone be interested in a Free School for Kingston perhaps!

Sixth form thing frustrates me immensely i have to say; far more so than any issues regarding intake / boundaries; TGS have already built theirs, whereas TS are at plans submission and beyond this must raise the necessary funds to build.
Adopting a diamond model with a join co-ed Sixth form would have benefitted both the girls & boys greatly i feel. There is ample space left in Kingston twon that could have been used - a car park just off the Fairfield by the old Post Office building springs to mind - you could have built something sensational; landmark - would have been an asset to both schools & the town as a whole. Was at Venus & Adonis earlier this year - first joint performance on such a scale involving both Tiffin schools in living memory; yet clearly the pupils were able to collaborate really effectively - the combined talent and the result was phenomenal, stunning. I did hope that the appointment of a former deputy head of TGS as head of TS would further the relationship between the two institutions, since there is clearly much to be gained. Building a joint sixth form would have been so obvious a move - i wonder why was it not considered?

Tiffin (girls and boys): Remember that every funded school has to comply with regulation and prescribed school admissions codes. Further it is possible to complain about such to both the Office of the Schools Adjudicator www.education.gov.uk/schoolsadjudicator/decisions/a0076144/objectionand/
or the newly formed Education Funding Agency www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/complaintsprocedure/b00212240/making-complaint-school. To complain to both is FREE!!

As with all things in life the more people who complain the more likely notice will be taken and action taken.

I think they had a lot of complaints because of the cut off date moving from late October to July - a lot of people simply didn't realise. Not sure if there is a massive advantage in sitting late - they have to name the school on the CAF. I hope they have a different paper though! I can imagine zillions of appeals - one way or another!

DD was invigilating on Thursday - whole day of no teaching - 1800 girls sitting plus parents and siblings queuing. Massive disruption. She saw people lining up for photos in front of the school and doing practice papers in cars nearby - bizarre. Not pleased as a current parent that there is going to be another day of disruption. Hopefully they won't have to take sixth form out of lessons.

Second test date simply anihilates any credibility the two Tiffin schools may have had. Appeals will go through the roof; why not have a third or fourth as well for that matter??? For those who 'didn't realise' the second...

If parents cannot be bothered to find out when the dates are - well then that's just tough. Entrance exam is on a particular date, applying the prescribed timelines / dates and criteria as per statute. (Or at least it should be.)

This second date does not comply with the new governmant requirement, that parents should be informed of the outcomes prior to submission of CAF. In effect the schools are running the old and new system this year in parallel.

So for that matter why doesn't everyone in the country with children of appropriate age just have a go: after all, distance is no bar - Tiffin School / Tiffin Girls School - come along ladies & gents - bring your children, roll up, roll up. Everyone a winner!!!

Look at the numbers: 1700 sat for TS; 1800 for TGS - for 140/150 places, respectively, so where is the need to test some more candidates??? I know for a fact TS would prefer it if rather fewer candidates sat; well, this is a very odd way to go about it...

A second test will almost certainly snatch places away from candidates who sat in what has now become the first tranche and who were borderline. How can that be fair???

RBK selection procedure is but a joke.

...if 3500 families combined across the two schools understood the rules and timelines perfectly well and were able to comply & present their children as candidates for selection procedure at the allocated test centres at the correct time; then surely the procedure must have been communicated clearly and effectively enough. Why on earth should these families now be dissadvantaged???

@BeingFluffy '...because of the cut off date moving from late October to July - a lot of people simply didn't realise'. I gather the reason is that the new 'rules' actually changed several times during implementation. Furthermore; RBK admissions procedure booklet does not mention July date in Key Dates at the front and states that CAF / SAF must be submitted by October end [oops], as it used to be. So it's a balls up all round really -- i think the schools have been left to pick up the pieces - i do not think it is in fact the schools fault or 'decision', they are trying to make best of a bad situation; but some parents / children will inevitably suffer or lose out as a result. Which is not good.

...second test dates should not cause major disruption at the schools i would have though; since anyone serious about applying to Tiffins would most likely have sat in the first tranche already this is borne out, as numbers were up on last year; both TS / TGS. Having to commit to putting the schools on the CAF will likely deter those who would have just given it a go in the first sitting from throwing their hats in for the second would be a risky tactic indeed. Finally, many may well have already secured their first choices elsewhere, so Tiffin will no longer be a priority. Well, least am hoping that will be the way it plays out. All of this impossible to quantify though of course.

I wonder how many of the candidates at the first sitting have or had little intention of applying to the schools at all, but were using it as a practice?

Will they still let 450 or so through to the maths/English test from the first sittings but also let the children who reached the standard of number 450 through from the second chancers? If not how will they do it.

What worries me is that, if the same paper is used there is potential for cheating but if another paper is used how do they know it is equivalent?

If a child doesn't reach the standard in the first test, would they have to name the school on the CAF in order to be able to appeal?

A school local to me uses Art Aptitude as an admissions criterion. Are they in breach of the code because they test in December and not before the CAF deadline? I notice St Marylebone which has performing arts aptitude has moved their tests forward while Greycoats which uses language aptitude hasn't.

i cannot see how the schools can arrive at fairly weighted scores, with the two tests 10 weeks apart. Age weighting alone certainly would not balance the two. @BeingFluffy agree; whether they use the same paper or different it is problematic either way. TGS two stage testing is more complicated still i guess; & the point you raise of whether unsuccessful candidates would then have to put the school on their CAF in order to be eligible to appeal is very valid. All a bit of a mess i'm afraid.

Whole process a nightmare this year, stakes upped as new tests and taken earlier, so harder to get tutors to 'fix' it for rich parents. Have been reading shocking stories of blatant May Contain Nuts type cheating actually occuring this year - sounds like the schools have not really taken necessary precautions but their loss as it will impact on their results and credibility in future.

Should add not at Tiffins - at another school...before anyone on this thread panics.

New to all this but I am in the early stages of identifying an 11+ private tutor to prepare my little one J2 in order to give her the maximum chance of taking her 11+ on an equal playing field with all other candidates. Could anyone recommend a tried and tested tutor around Haringey,Crouch End, Muswell Hill , Finsbury Park, Sroud Green area? Thx

Best start a new thread '11+ tutor needed, Haringey'

Otherwise people have to wade through 148 posts to find yours.

Had anyone heard about a second date? We missed the deadline and we already have DD1 in the school, so I really don't think the date was clearly advertised! We made a late application and spoke to the admissions person but haven't heard a thing. In the meantime DD2 has decided she'd rather go elsewhere so it's not a big deal for usl. But the school hasn't even confirmed to us whether or not there would be a second sitting. That's really tough if people don't even know whether they can scrap the exam practice or whether they need to keep going!

I think the poor communication would also have had a much bigger impact on families who are not using paid tutors. (Yes, these do exist!)