Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

So all credit to Coombe boys that its high attainers (Level 5 on entry) got a similar or better average point score (best 8 GCSEs) to the L5 group at at least two Kent/Lincolnshire grammar schools (i.e. higher grades). And that's not the Kent grammar school in special measures either. Tiffin comes about 22 in the list of 164 grammars, beaten mostly by girls' schools. Not bad for a superselective, but its standards would slip if it restricted its catchment as it's already below one of the Sutton boys' grammars.

On that measure, Coombe Girls beat 18 grammars. That's just 2012 and the results of both Coombe schools are rising. There are lots of ways of interrogating those tables.

tiffinboys I see more threads here and on other 11plus sites about parents wanting their children to go to grammar.

You have indirectly answered the question I asked: How many threads do you see about 'how do I get my child into the Sec Mod?' You don't. You tried to lay the blame for a lack of grammar schools on Labour but I was explaining why the Tories didn't insist on going back to the old system when they got into power, and why True Blue authorities somehow managed to go comprehensive.

And you say parents want to go to Secondary moderns! Please tell me where I said that? On the Oxon/Bucks borders you do get parents who don't want to risk the Bucks Sec Mods (used to be called Upper Schools) so send their children to the Oxfordshire comprehensives.

'you say parents want to go to Secondary moderns' - no, she would have meant the opposite. As shootingatpigeons explains, that's why the Catholic secondary modern in Richmond failed.

No one wants their children to go to a creamed off secondary modern unless they are realistic about their abilities and talents, and there is a really innovative technical curriculum, with suitable jobs and/or an apprenticeship to go on. With the obsessive focus on academic results for all, no government has provided that. Some academies could do that but they are being judged on 5 A-C GCSEs and not comparing well. Even Michael Gove wants to ditch that measure because it is a blunt instrument.

Quite so muminlondon - you sum up what I was trying to say perfectly.

In fact I think the vast majority of parents want a good local school where the curriculum is wide enough to enable their children to fulfill their abilities, and where bullying and bad behaviour are firmly dealt with.

Agree LaVolcan - we all want a well balanced local comprehensive school.

The performance tables really do give much more information than we've ever had before. And you can select, compare, filter and sort very quickly.

Coombe Boys beats about 17 grammars for progress of high attainers in English. Southborough beats two of them for English and four for Maths (and has dramatically improved on Ebacc pass rates in 2013). There must be some really careful targeted teaching to all ability ranges in those schools.

I tried but could not locate 2013 league table data. Could muminlondon kindly post the link?

2012 data does not show Coombe boys so highly in comparison to Tiffin, our local grammar.

'LEH take the top 5% yet tiffin get around 90% A/A at GCSE and LEH 95% A/A'

Just picking up that point - you have to distinguish between point score per pupil and point score per entry. Capped for best 8 qualifications, Tiffin Girls beats LEH on average point score per pupil (451 vs 445 points). But perhaps LEH allows a few of the brightest to take more subjects with individual tutoring, and they get all the A*s. I guess that is one advantage of the fees.

There is a point where you can't compare state schools and independents because there isn't enough info. Independents used to push the line that iGCSEs are harder but recent reports merely suggest they are clearer for international students (some might even suggest they are easier). Now independents focus on percentage A/A*s but that is no indication of how many students achieve them.

No league table info for 2013 - full tables available January 2014. I saw Southborough's 38% Ebacc result in the press I think.

2012 performance tables here:

www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/

I imagine that LEH has smaller classes and better teaching resources than Tiffins girls. Tiffins girls is far harder to get into than LEA. The bright girl at LEH in a small class with better resources will be on a par with the super bright girl at Tiffins who parents can't afford school fees.

Most families in the area do not have the option of LEH however gifted their daughter is. (Even with a scholarship the extras would sink a lot of families)

@lavolcan
Yes, I agree Tories didn't reverse the Labour's demolition of grammars. Perhaps they were as contrained as labour was, when they could not reverse all the 'bad laws' passed by Tories re privatizations, secondary strikes etc.

However, the only boroughs/counties where the grammars survived were Tories controlled. Labour vehemently went about converting grammars into comprehensives.

@reallytired.

+1 re LEH or other good selective independents.

re TGS. One TGS mum (Tiffingirls) mentioned on other 11plus forum 6th form about TGS girls getting less lessons than recommended, due to budgetary constraints. I would think that if full resources were available, TGS girls would do even better.

'the only boroughs/counties where the grammars survived were Tories controlled'

Maybe because they couldn't give a stuff about the 75% going to secondary moderns because many of them don't bother to vote or write letters?

Mum No, unlike practically all state schools LEH cap the number of GCSEs girls take at 10, unless they have a second language. By the look of it there wasn't even one of those this year. Absolutely no doing extras with extra tutoring etc. They argue you don't need more to get into uni and doing more will cut into time for extra curricular. So the proportion of A/A*s is the relevant measure.

I also don't argue that it isn't easier to get into than LEH, aside from anything else it isn't just raw ability or attainment, they are looking at the whole child. Nor am I arguing that there are not a whole host of other factors in GCSE results but what I am arguing is that if it is really successfully discriminating in favour of the top 1% of the ability range (and I am not sure any test could actually reliably discriminate to 1% without some margin for error) and enabling them to fulfil their potential (with the benefit by all accounts of a lot of external tutoring after as well as before entrance) then they should be outperforming LEH, who take girls in the top 5%, and the top sets in other comps by some margin. I do not believe the tests are even as reliable as they could be with the right investment. When you hear stories of candidates starting out with scores at 90% (so raw score only in the top 10% of the population) and getting them up to 97% over a period of months then the tests have clearly become predictable and tutorable and they are not discriminating in favour of the brightest, but in favour of the prepared. It is possible to make tests a lot more reliable than that but it costs money, especially with '000s of applicants. That means they are discriminating against the bright kids who do not have the advantage of parents who prepare them (for whatever reason), the very kids that the Grammar School system was established to help. I think having a state system that discriminates in that way is morally indefensible.

Quite agree with you, shootingatpigeons, that Tiffin School (boys) should move away from just NVR/VR tests. TGS has done the right thing by introducing Maths/English tests.

and also that TGS has 70% weightage for English/maths tests. Much better than just reasoning papers by GL, which could be cracked by just working hard.

I agree that the standard of intake at LEH is extremely high and would imagine they offer more opportunities too - obviously for a high price. And your point about the reliability of high stakes 11 plus testing is a really important one. The margin of error is too high, especially for those schools that are not superselectives, and the alternatives offer much more limited opportunities.

Average entries for TGS is 11.3 entries. Average for LEH is 10.2. TGS pupils are obviously getting lower grades on the three not included in 'best 8'. One other thought - in some subjects there is a lower percentage of A/A*s across the board (Design Tecnology, Music, Art) so it is still difficult to make a comparison. For the sake of pupils everywhere, isn't it better to have a B or even a C in Art/Drama/Music than be forced into an extra Statistics or Further Maths exam which you'd probably get an A for??!

@muminlondon
if 75% don't bother to vote for Tories, then how boroughs/counties were controlled by Tories, where grammars survived?

Because they don't vote at all? Or they don't have school age or any children and aren't expressing an opinion on that issue? Or have younger children and are fondly imagining their children will be included in the top 25%? Or had a chance to send their children to high performing comps over the border if it all went pear-shaped? You can't blame people for having aspirations but reality doesn't always pan out that way. As Zoffany has found out.

Or voted LibDem (forgot that one)?

Ah, the question was how Tories controlled the grammar surviving counties/boroughs, if they were not voted in.

In our democracy, first past the post, we need to accept who got voted in, whether we like the outcome or not.

They were voted in. I'm explaing how you could win an election despite only having the votes of a minority of the electorate. Perhaps their true-blue supporters would have voted in a donkey with a blue rosette?

Historical anomalies. For a long time grammar schools have had foundation and now academy status so LAs can't change their admissions policies whatever the outcome of elections.

Yeah, we all know that LAs can't determine Academies admission arrangements. They have washed their hands off. Thanks to the changes made by New Labour.

About your comments about tory blues, as this would equally apply to red coated radicals, better to leave it there.