Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

Withdrawal is not a solution.

Maybe this would happen automatically if more grammar schools were to open in nearby areas, such as Putney, East Sheen, etc? The pressure on Tiffin would decrease and more space open up to local kids?

Maybe you (and me) would be well served if you were to cruzade for Tiffin to open up Tiffin Putney, or Tiffin East Sheen, etc!

I think Tiffin is an alternative to a selective independent fee paying school, not an alternative to your local bog standard comprehensive....

Certainly agree with the latter point. As a non-local, for me its Tiffin, Graveney or some of the SW London indies.

I think locals should campaign (if there is a shortage of secondary places) to get Tiffin made non-selective. Then they will have their nice school back with distance criteria.

Tiffin School and Tiffin Girls School should federate (as with Coombe Girls/Coombe Boys) for the purpose, and create a new mixed school on the site of The Old Post Office, Ashdown Road.

Location is perfect, the original buildings are lovely Grade 2 listed, and the site has sadly been in dereliction now since 1990, getting on for quarter of a century.

www.flickr.com/photos/abandonment/2560718269/in/photostream/

There is ample room to develop state of the art facilities joining the two buildings on the adjacent car parking - knock down JobCentre+ offices next door and relocate this as everything DWP is transferring online anyway - so this wasted space can no longer be justified.

You could very easily, cost-effectively and quickly create a stunning landmark development (like KGS performing arts frontage) - an additional 240 places would do Kingston nicely, without affecting the character of either of the existing schools.

Build a new joint 6th form on the car parking space opposite to free up space in the existing girls and boys schools, so they could expand to 240 each up to age 16 - that would yield 720 places total (vs. current 300 combined) so would eliminate all of these issues for good; plus establish Tiffins at the forefront as a leading provider in UK state education sector.

A centre of academic excellence in the town where England began.

Even with proposed new school in NK, we still need more places in Kingston at secondary level. Proposed LRC2 at Tiffin School could then be used to accommodate increased numbers of boys at the lower school.

Why not propose this?

...conversion of existing buildings - police stations and such like; re-purposing them for educational use appears to be the way forward - now that funding for new schools has been cut - i would have thought a scheme such as this would enjoy local support; since the collapse of K20 project and the proposed Eden Quarter, something needs to be done with this site - it is too important strategically for the town to be left to decay. Transportation links are excellent for this site, with several bus termini nearby and Kingston railway station; access to the ancient marketplace a stones throw away; Kingston University practically on the doorstep. Also it is nearby Fairfield recreation ground where the 1880 Tiffin School buildings are still located.

Good idea, zoffany. Definitely worth looking into by LA and Tiffins.

In the meanwhile,.........................

'if more grammar schools were to open in nearby areas, such as Putney, East Sheen, etc? The pressure on Tiffin would decrease'

Then Ark Putney, Richmond Park Academy, Christ's and/or Grey Court would turn into secondary moderns.

-For each grammar school of 120 pupils you create three schools without a top set if your catchment is limited to one area.

• The grammars are no longer superselectives and take most children capable of reaching Level 5 along with a heavily tutored bunch of average but fairly well off children (20%).
• Those who can afford it will head for middle-ability independent schools (e.g. 10% - the proportion is limited by means but the proportion of selective/non-selective depends on the local state sector - they are mostly non-selective in Kent).
• Then there are faith schools (15%) but they offer unequal opportunities.

Meanwhile the squeezed middle, poor, non-religious and not very mobile majority (55%) have no choice but the comprehensive down the road with a bigger concentration of SEN and/or disadvantaged children excluded from the upper tiers of the 'choice' pyramid.

Incidentally Quint did you know that there used to be a Catholic secondary modern where Christ's school is now? Now why do you think it wasn't as popular as Catholic comprehensives that do not set an ability test?

That's a really good point muminlondon and a good reason for keeping open selection. I think in Kingston these schools are really a relic of the past though and think the fairest solution for all would be to make them go comprehensive.

Just a point about a combined Sixth Form an idea I support in principle - I know schools that go up to year 11 only have more difficulty recruiting teachers so it could make recruitment and retention of good teachers more difficult than it is already in TGS and I assume TS.

That must have been long ago muminlondon!

My friend who is my age went to Christs!

Some will remember it - see here. 1954 to 1976 when the grammar/sec modern system was established. The Oratory was a Catholic grammar school then - it wasn't about priest's references so much as the 11 plus. There were strict catchment areas and I think Cardinal Vaughan was the grammar for parts of Twickenham as it was a separate borough (correct me if I am wrong). But trying to maintain a separate grammar/modern system was a disaster for Catholics as there were fewer of them and children would have to travel long distances. But you're allocated a sec modern you're less likely to travel so the RC church coud see two-thirds of their flock disappearing to the new non-Catholic comps. By this time the rest of Richmond was fully comp and St Edward the Confessor disappeared.

Opposition to grammars is basically from an ideologically stand point. We had this experiment of abolishing grammars and replacing with comprehensives for last 30-40 years. All it has done is decline in educational standards from which we have not recovered despite throwing so much money in the last decade or so.

Even the architects of this scheme (Shirley Williams) did not have much faith in new comprehensives and put her daughter in the grammar school (L&G). Neither did the Labour Education Secretary (Ruth Kelly) or Labour MP (Diane Abbott), who both put their children in private education. They acted on their motherly instincts, rather than acting on political preaching.

There is an intake of about 30 children in Tiffin School from Kingston borough. Is some body seriously suggesting that if these 30 children are dispersed in the remaining Kingston's comprehensives, their A-level or GCSE points would double to equal Tiffin's score?

Or in other words, if 30 more children were to enter Tiffin's, would the standard of the Kingston comprehensives would decline to hslf of what is their current low?

I am sure that there is are more than 30 children from the Kingston Borough in both Tiffins boys and Tiffins girls. Kingston has a high population density. There are plenty of exceptionally bright and hot housed kids in kingston.

The kingston comprehensives are creamed off by the sheer number of private schools in the area. Most towns do not have the money to support the large of number of private selective schools that Kingston has.

And there are more private selectives in Richmond and other neighbouring areas. More places taken by boys than girls, interestingly. It becomes a vicious circle of fear. But if Tiffin expanded the state schools would suffer more than the independents, which would just adapt to taking the worried well-off wanting to avoid over-creamed comps.

Even the architects of this scheme (Shirley Williams) did not have much faith in new comprehensives and put her daughter in the grammar school (L&G)

I disagree with this. At the time Shirley Williams daughter was 11, the system where she lived was Grammar and Secondary Moderns. Her daughter passed the 11+ so she went to the Grammar school. When the system went comprehensive the daughter went to the comprehensive.

Diane Abbott, Ruth Kelly, yes. Guilty as charged. Remind me which party Maggie Thatcher belonged to, because during her time as Education Secretary more schools were converted to comprehensives than under previous Education Secretaries.

Quint That was one (of many) of the issues with the case for a new Catholic School. There was indeed a Catholic School in Richmond, St Edmunds. It was on the site that is now Marshgate. However it was comprehensive and was increasingly snubbed by Catholics in favour of Gunnersbury, Sacred Heart and Oratory. It merged with Christ's because neither would have survived and the merged Christ's ended up almost closing so bad was it's absenteeism, exam performance, reputation etc. just like RPA. That terrible journey to distant Catholic Schools which parents had taken and supposedly justified the need for a local school? they took even though there was a local school, it's just it wasn't good enough.

@lavolcan
Shirley Williams was living at the time in Herts and still lives there as far as I know. L&G is in Hammersmith. Williams daughter was shown to be living at nearby address, with children of Williams friend (tenants at the property). The controversy was well known at the time. Williams daughter only left L&G when the school became independent to resist becoming a comprehensive. At best, Shirley was not as bold as Ruth & Diane.

@reallytired
My previous comments above were for Tiffin School (boys). This school had published the admission statistics for 2007-12 at its website. Perhaps school will provide it again if one ask for it.

@ lavolcan
Yes, agree Tories did not have the guts to reverse the law, passed by Labour. Thatcher could not stop conversion as LEAs were responsible to convert the schools into comprehensives. Who had control of most LEAs? Our dear Red Ken brigade & other comrades, as far as I remember. They distroyed the high ability schools on ideological grounds, without building up a equally good replacement.

Who had control of most LEAs? Our dear Red Ken brigade & other comrades, as far as I remember.

I am sorry, but I think your memory must be incorrect. There are vast swathes of England, particularly southern England, that either always return a Tory council or just might manage a No Overall Control. E.g. Oxfordshire, Conservative until 1985, NOC for 20 years, Conservative again 8 years, NOC now: the conservatives were 1 vote short, although the Independents vote with the Tories. Not much of 'dear Red Ken' there. BTW Oxfordshire is a comprehensive county and went comprehensive sometime back in the seventies, under its Tory controlled days.

Why did the Tories not reverse the law? Votes, that's why. Look at the threads on MN now, about the Kent schools i.e. the county which still has a Grammar school system throughout. Ask yourself, how many threads do you see saying - I want my child to go to a Kent Secondary Modern?

Shootingatpigeons, you say:

"That terrible journey to distant Catholic Schools which parents had taken and supposedly justified the need for a local school? they took even though there was a local school, it's just it wasn't good enough."

I am not really sure I understand what your point is to be honest.

Are you saying that people will always travel to far away schools because they are perceived better? If so, is this a reply to my post that there should be more grammar schools, and that building grammars schools in surrounding areas would take the pressure of Tiffin?

Or is this a slingshot against the new Catholic school in Twickenham? If so not sure you can judge what parents today want for their childrens school based on a school that was bad 30-40 years ago that parents did not send their children to. It just proves that not all schools that are Catholic are any good, and you dont have to go back 30 years to find examples of that.

Or are you saying that parents want the best for their kids' education? But should stick to their good local school, if there is one?

Like I said, I dont get it, so would appreciate if you could clarify what your point is.

Voters ultimately had control over the LAs and they responded to the fear of the middle classes who saw what happened to their children when they didn't pass the 11plus. It's interesting that Richmond and Kingston have been under LibDem control for a long time but while Richmond converted enthusiastically to comprehensives (in general now very high attaining), Kingston stuck with grammars. Would be interesting to go back and see who took the decisions then. I doubt that Richmond was ever under Labour control.

There are politicians who sent their children to comprehensives though. Or who went there themselves. Peter Hain sent his children to what is now Ark Putney, Caroline Flint went to Waldegrave. Those people tend to prefer privacy. Whereas the newspapers who write about such things are stacked full of privately educated journalists who just like to undermine state schools.

In presence of the league tables (Blair's favourite), no one needs to undermine any state school. By the way, grammars are state schools too.

The result of Kingston comprehensives for boys is for all to see. It would be a blessing if more of local children are in Tiifins, rather than be forced to go to independents (in view of poor performing state schools, which are what these children are offered).

Yes, I remember Peter Hain. Voted for him in Southfield/Putney constituency long time ago. He lost there, I think, twice. Ironically, when I voted for David Mellor, he lost too.

@lovolcan
I see more threads here and on other 11plus sites about parents wanting their children to go to grammar. Why is that there are more children in Tiffins from out of Kingston/Richmond? Because, parents do anything for their children to go to grammar - top grammar is a bonus.

I read that 2000 children registered for Tiffin (boys) tests, this year. Over 3000 sat for Slough tests. Nearly 2300 sat for Sutton boys grammars tests. And you say parents want to go to Secondary moderns!

No quint I wasn't derailing the thread into a debate about the Catholic School, it was just a comment following your comment following muminlondon s comment. Yes there was a Catholic school, it was still open when I moved here 25 years ago, my neighbours children went to Oratory in preference to it. Those parents who stood up and told the Council's Cabinet of their husbands experiences taking long journeys to school, presumably Oratory, as evidence of the need for a new local Catholic School were actually providing evidence that what they really want above all, is good schools. As mum rightly points out when you start creaming off larger proportions than the frankly nearly irrelevant 1% that get to Tiffin then you risk the remaining local schools becoming like St Edmunds (though I think Oratory /Gunnersbury/Sacred Heart had gone comprehensive quite early on but too late for it to recover it's local reputation)

Personally I think that when Grammar Schools performed the function of giving bright children from all backgrounds a chance to fulfil their potential, something my mother had the benefit of, and secondary moderns actually did provide an education that was designed to meet the needs of the less able, including meaningful vocational training, then the system had something to be said for it in terms of meeting the needs of society. However even when I went to grammar school it was becoming a middle class enclave, though it gave many of my working class a chance of university.

However the grammar schools, both Tiffin and the more inclusive ones eg in Kent and where I grew up, are now effectively exclusive to all but the very bright indeed or the thoroughly prepared. They have not invested in truely tutor proof admissions arrangements, they don't need to, the pupils they get are bright enough, and as all the threads on here and the 11+ forums demonstrate these schools admissions no longer distinguish the bright from those who have the advantage of parents who prepare them. In theory Tiffin girls takes the top 1% in terms of VR /NVR scores, LEH take the top 5% yet tiffin get around 90% A/A at GCSE and LEH 95% A/A . Even allowing for all the outside factors affecting results between 11 and 16 this suggests to me that somewhere along the line, at the admissions stage or in what is on offer educationally, something is not quite right in terms of taking the brightest and enabling them to fulfill their potential. Anecdotally I know that girls in the top sets at Coombe, Waldegrave etc also equal if not outperform Tiffin.

I see an argument for having schools that meet the needs of the brightest but not ones that meet the needs of the largely middle class (or at least parents prepared to push) and segregate the rest into schools no one wants to go to. I would much rather we focused on making all our comps into Waldegraves and Coombes.