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Would you take the option of paying say £1000 pa to your 'state school' for smaller classes etc?

118 replies

ampere · 18/04/2012 15:19

Purely a hypothetical, of course!- but if the option was there to make an up-front annual payment to your DC's school to 'improve' things like staff:pupil ratios, or greater small group learning opportunities and so forth, would you?

What about a means-testing of contribution? Please bear in mind this is a hypothetical! I am maybe imagining a Free School of the future which has legally been allowed to fly the governmental clutches in order to do this, say.

I know where I live I believe the reality is most parents could afford £1000, so if there are 60 DC in a year, and say 2/3 of parents pay that sum (or all pay less, whatever) you'd have enough cash to be able to reduce the class sizes to 3 of twenty DC, if not full-time, then much of it!

The only 'rule' I would like to impose is that before you explode at the unfairness and iniquity of this as not all parents can spare any money and that this can only benefit 'the wealthy' I want to ask how vocally you currently oppose private education (where he who pays wins) and grammar schools as they only benefit 'the clever'. Just a thought.

This has gone through my mind as I pay just about that per year to get DS2 tutored as it is!

OP posts:
MoreBeta · 25/04/2012 15:11

ampere - lets face it. People use their money all over the state education system to get their DCs into a better school.

At least I'm honest about it by paying for a place in a private school unlike the woman I know who rented a house in the catchment area of a good primary school while still owning a house 2 miles away. Having secured the school place, she is now in the process of moving back into her old house and will drive all the way across town to take her child to the 'good' primary past the local 'bad' primary her DCs should have gone to near her home.

ampere · 25/04/2012 15:28

beta- this appears to have segued into a 'school-catchment fraud' discussion.

I readily concede I legally bought my way into a good school catchment. I used the options I had (costing me approx £30,000). I would happily have given the more average school the DCs were in before £1000 were I able to and, to put in bluntly (and I am so not alone in saying this as an argument against private) kept my nice, well-behaved MC DC at that school. Critical mass, and all that.

If what you're doing is 'honest', what are you saying about my proposal (to reiterate, being able to give my DC's school £1000 odd to improve the school experience of the DC at the school, including mine)?

You haven't really countered my argument. You're saying that it's OK because you're being honest in paying for private education; I'm 'accusing' your motive of being not wanting state parents to subsidise their DC's schools because to do so might close the gap between your DC's privileged (presumably small classed, well-disciplined) private and 'normal' state DCs.

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ReallyTired · 25/04/2012 15:48

It deemed terrible on this thread that I would like children with behavioural SEN in a nuture group. Yet people buy advantage to get their kids in good schools away from children with behaviour issues.

Push comes to shove NO one wants their kid in a class with a distruptive child and who can blame them.

ampere · 25/04/2012 17:57

Yes, I want to point out I've not actually stated 'I do not want SEN DCs in my DC's class' but to me, if my £1000 bought a situation where DCs with any sort of SEN that would benefit from out-time/nurture groups/ targetted intervention and so forth- that might sometimes remove that DC from my DC's class... COuld that be mutually beneficial to both the SEN DC and the -can I say 'NT' DC?

There is no doubt that disruption is a huge barrier to meaningful learning taking place, be it via poor behaviour or SEN (bearing in mind that I do not regard all 'poor behaviour' as SEN- much of it is just poor discipline! BUT I also fully recognise that SEN does not automatically mean 'disruptive', BUT could that DC not also benefit from the targetted support 'my' £1000 is buying the school? Whilst my 'NT' DC can get on with his best style of learning in another classroom with fewer DC?

I agree too that, as I stated in my OP, it is to be remembered that we 'tolerate' a situation in this country on a daily basis (with tax breaks!) where 7% of DC are effectively advantaged with a) small class sizes where beneficial and b) no SEN in their classes that might slow the class down or take a disproportionate amount of the teacher's time.

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ReallyTired · 25/04/2012 18:11

I believe in inclusion and there are lot of children in special schools who are not reaching their full potential. It is shocking that some SN children do not get to do GCSEs when they have normal IQ. Children at special schools often have long taxi journeys and get seperated from their local community.

The problem with inclusion is that children with SEN are often left to fend for themselves with limited support. The lack of support means they cannot defend themselves against bullying. I believe that nuture group where children could spend part or all of the day would help. A child should be in a nuture group with a long term view towards as much integration as the child can cope with.

Actually I think that extreme distruptive behaviour is a form of special need. No child is born evil and 99% of the time there is a good reason for bad behaviour. However it takes time to work out the reason for poor behaviour.

Kewcumber · 25/04/2012 20:42

in DS's class children with SEN are not disruptive to his learning and I would be vociferous about any attempt to shoe horn them into a "nurture" group just because they are in an amorphous "SEN" group.

I was educated in a class of 35 taught by a single teacher, as were all my contemporaries. It never occurred to me that it was a problem. DS has 6 children less in his class with a full time TA in addition to the teacher.

I still don't think its a problem.

ampere · 25/04/2012 21:51

I was taught in a class of 36 with one teacher and DC aged brighter 8 to some definitely SEN DC, held back, aged 12.

The clever amongst us flew. The teacher, an older bloke who'd previously taught at Public schools and grammars before stepping down towards retirement and a tiny village primarywas quick witted, droll, sharp, and truly inspirational towards us clever, 11+ passing DC. We loved him. Our parents loved him.

But it's only as an adult that I can see what purgatory his classes must have been for those less clever and SEN DC. No allowances or different approaches whatsoever happened. One size fitted all. The one DS who 'kicked off' once too often just 'disappeared' (buried under the loos?!).

Oh, how 'integrated' we all were!

OP posts:
ReallyTired · 26/04/2012 08:46

"The one DS who 'kicked off' once too often just 'disappeared' (buried under the loos?!)."

There were many more special schools in those days. Children were (and still are) seperated from their friends and often have to travel long distances to school.

"I was educated in a class of 35 taught by a single teacher, as were all my contemporaries. It never occurred to me that it was a problem. DS has 6 children less in his class with a full time TA in addition to the teacher."

Academic expectations are much higher of children than 30 years ago. Also in the past teachers were allowed to cane distruptive children. Nowadays children know their "rights" and there is bugger all that can be done to stop them distrupting the learning of other children at primary level.

lancelottie · 26/04/2012 09:17

OK, ReallyTired, I think we have quite a bit of common ground. I'll excuse your implication that a good caning would deal with much of the bad behaviour, as I don't think you've thought it through. Would you use it on an abused child, an autistic child, a child with Down's, a deaf child, any of whom could be lashing out in frustration? I suspect you've too much humanity for that and wouldn't, not really.

In return, you'll have to excuse my parental bias in favour of my son getting the best academic AND social education he can (and he hates being bunged in a room full of other disruptive children, as it makes him hugely stressed and, importantly, inclined to copy their worst excesses).

Teachers at his very inclusive, very successful school tell me that he is an asset to the class. They also tell me that, yes, he still hums, whistles, exclaims, clicks pen lids, and leaves the room without warning. And none of his well-behaved, top-set classmates bat an eyelid. All credit to them for it; he'd have irritated the hell out of me at the same prissy age. I suppose you could regard it as 'irritant-proofing' them against annoying colleagues in later life?

In the early years of secondary he did spend some time each week in small groups, possibly a bit like your idea of nurture groups, but targeted at specific skills such as conversation, music therapy and OT. Mainly, though what he needs (and miraculously has) is a full-time, 1-to-1 TA, who negotiates his instant departure from the room when stressed AND then helps him to catch up on what he's missed that same day (and this is crucial; he needs to keep up on normal lessons, and you can't do this while being 'nurtured' in a cupboard somewhere).

He is, I'm fully aware, a huge cost to the state at the moment, but with hope of being a self-supporting adult at the end of it.

The problems, I'd say, come when you have a critical mass of bored, ready-for-mayhem types in a class, who see any disruption as a get-out-of-maths-free card...

lancelottie · 26/04/2012 09:19

God that was long. Sorry.

If I had a point, I think it was that truly useful support is likely to cost something like full-time TA wages per very disruptive child. And no, I don't see how to raise that.

ReallyTired · 26/04/2012 09:38

I am completely opposed to the cane. In my experience it terrified children into submission. The cane was got rid of for good reason.

"In the early years of secondary he did spend some time each week in small groups, possibly a bit like your idea of nurture groups, but targeted at specific skills such as conversation, music therapy and OT. Mainly, though what he needs (and miraculously has) is a full-time, 1-to-1 TA, who negotiates his instant departure from the room when stressed AND then helps him to catch up on what he's missed that same day (and this is crucial; he needs to keep up on normal lessons, and you can't do this while being 'nurtured' in a cupboard somewhere). "

I think we are in agreement. When mainstream is too much your son's TA negotiates his instant departure. Where does the TA take your son? Surely he doesn't hang about in the corridor. It sounds like your school has a nuture group system like I am suggesting. Your son has had intensive nuturing to allow him to be educated along side his mainstream peers. He has been kept in his community rather than sent miles away to special school.

I know a little boy who was excluded at the age 6 from primary school. He now attends an EBD school more than 20 miles away. A 40 mile round trip in a taxi is very expensive and tiring for a child. He has been at the special school for 4 years and has dramatically improved with his anger management. I believe that this boy could be educated in a mainstream school, but needs a nuture unit like lancelottie had to help him settle in. Intially he might have to be full time and then gradually integrate into mainstream.

I believe a nuture group with good resources could prevent children from being permamently excluded and keep children in their communities.

huptwothree · 26/04/2012 09:53

Smaller class sizes are immeasurably better for the majority of children. But no I wouldn't (pay for state education).

Paying for education brings its own set of woes and worries - it gives parents a new sense of entitlement. Private schools are used to dealing with this, I can't see the average state school being thrilled about having to deal with Mr and Mrs X freaking out because they pay for it and its not good enough etc etc.

ReallyTired · 26/04/2012 10:41

"Paying for education brings its own set of woes and worries - it gives parents a new sense of entitlement. Private schools are used to dealing with this, I can't see the average state school being thrilled about having to deal with Mr and Mrs X freaking out because they pay for it and its not good enough etc etc."

Don't you believe it. State schools have plenty of experience of dealing with completely looney parents.

huptwothree · 26/04/2012 10:50

of course. But believe me, a parent who pays is a parent who wants their pound of flesh. My experience of state education (very good school) is that teachers (who did an excellent job) don't take particularly kindly to parents being over involved or suggesting ways that their child should be taught (I dont blame them). When parents pay they expect to be involved and listened to (to an awfully big extent) in a way that non-payers don't on the whole!

lancelottie · 26/04/2012 11:02

Sadly, ReallyTired, the 'price' we pay for all of this is that DS isn't educated locally but taxied nearly 20 miles away (still to mainstream), so he has lost most of his local friendships. I wish it could be on offer locally.

Kewcumber · 26/04/2012 13:35

The cane wasn't ever used in my primary school and only ever once to my knowledge in secondary. Some teachers are good at dealing with unruly classes and some aren;t. Some schools have very good well executed behaviour policies otehrs don;t.

I still don;t think a blanket policy with has any kind of SeN as admission criteria has any point.

Behaviour policy of how to deal with any child making it impossible for otehrs to learn is different.

mumblesmum · 26/04/2012 19:02

I think people totally misunderstand that a class of 25 or so is NOT difficult to manage. You do get to know the children individually - they are not faceless or nameless. A class of 30 has exactly the same 'opportunities for discussion' as a class of 20 (why would it not?). It also has exactly the same opportunities for learning (why would it not?).
The only advantage of a smaller class is that it would be less marking and less report writing for the teacher.

ReallyTired · 27/04/2012 13:49

This would safe the country thousands and well worth extra cash.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17866268

The children learn to fit in with the community.

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