Would you take the option of paying say £1000 pa to your 'state school' for smaller classes etc?

[ampere]

Purely a hypothetical, of course!- but if the option was there to make an up-front annual payment to your DC's school to 'improve' things like staff:pupil ratios, or greater small group learning opportunities and so forth, would you?

What about a means-testing of contribution? Please bear in mind this is a hypothetical! I am maybe imagining a Free School of the future which has legally been allowed to fly the governmental clutches in order to do this, say.

I know where I live I believe the reality is most parents could afford £1000, so if there are 60 DC in a year, and say 2/3 of parents pay that sum (or all pay less, whatever) you'd have enough cash to be able to reduce the class sizes to 3 of twenty DC, if not full-time, then much of it!

The only 'rule' I would like to impose is that before you explode at the unfairness and iniquity of this as not all parents can spare any money and that this can only benefit 'the wealthy' I want to ask how vocally you currently oppose private education (where he who pays wins) and grammar schools as they only benefit 'the clever'. Just a thought.

This has gone through my mind as I pay just about that per year to get DS2 tutored as it is!

I see teachers in a class of 30 who can just about cope if they aren't expected to do other duties in school/ are experienced/ enthusiastic but other issues seem to tip them into no longer coping. And that does include disruptive behaviour.

On a separate issue, SEN inclusiveness seems to benefit everyone far more than the way SEN kids were 'kept' in special schools when we were young. But surely ,depending on what the special needs are, it only works if teachers are given the right training and TA support where needed. With budget cuts, I don't know whether that is the case anymore (actually I don't know if it ever was?) That situation fails the SEN children and the others too.

You do all that - you've earnt your stripes and your right to respect as a professional person.

Well, you say that... I certainly don't respect everyone that was on my PGCE.

I could (just) afford the £1000. Unfortunately at least one of my children is the sort Jabed would pay NOT to have in her child's classroom (though he's a lot less disruptive given full-time one-to-one assistance). At one point he was in a (state) class of 13, five of whom had recognised special needs. An extra £13000 wouldn't have gone far in that class.

Should say that I do sometimes hanker for the sort of halfway point that the OP is suggesting, and in a different, smugger, pre-SEN life would have been unthinkingly keener on it. But money doesn't buy you everything.

pastoral I have to disagree that respect for the teacher is earned. They are in charge of our children, they are adults, children should respect them as they're senior. What would a teacher have to do to earn respect? I really think the lack of respect for all grown ups and those in a professional role is one of the biggest problems of our society. I can't believe that people allow their children to back chat and not listen to grown ups.

But the issue is that teachers are NOT respected by either chav or posh parents let alone politicians and decision makers
I remember when to meet the infant class size rules the requirement to get onto a Bed primary was dropped to two Ds at A level - some of that cohort are still teaching
they do not inspire my respect
BUT
teachers must be willing to do CPD - and on their subjects, not just management stuff - and then starting at the upper key stages demand to be treated as professionals by decision makers, then parents and then the children will respect them too

at which stage discipline becomes easier
and with better (self) discipline, comes better teaching

private schools have better discipline because they have better sanctions, NOT because they have either better kids or parents

Snakes yes, I think I would go private if I could afford it BUT within a sort of LEA framework. I actually think state education works pretty well, on balance.

I don't want £100 blazers, 50m Olympic pools that only the swimming team get to use, indoor running tracks that only the athletic elite get to use, science labs that Cambridge Uni would be proud of; wide, tree lined drives amidst beautifully manicured lawns, sweeping down to the Old Manor that the children are not allowed to play on.

It surprises me that there is still no 'middle ground' here, something between 'state' and £8000 pa (am thinking 'lower end, SE', here!) schools. We have one of those- is it Cognita? schools near here- Chris Woodward's thing? ie a 'basic' private prep but the fees are about 10 grand a year and the uniform is John Lewis only!

I would happily pay my DS's class teacher £1000 a year extra, personally, to give my DS an extra 1 1/2 hours 1:1 tuition a week in that he knows where DS can improve but he has 29 other DC to consider, too, so I know the maths of that don't add up (he'd be up all night! Though would make £30,000 pa more...) so a compromise would be him being able to spend more time in a smaller class setting with DS- bearing in mind a fair bit of what he'd impart to DS doesn't need to be personally delivered!

DS's tuition is delivered in a 1:3 or 4 setting which works because the tutor explains work, sets it and leaves DS to get on with it, looking after another DC in the interim, then returns when DS has finished it to evaluate it, et cetera. So I'm not paying for 'dead' time.

I usually agree with you, Talkinpeace- but not necessarily here!: 'private schools have better discipline because they have better sanctions, NOT because they have either better kids or parents'

They do have 'better' kids in that they have hand selected them from a cohort whose parents have demonstrated, by and large, their commitment to their DC's education and school by paying out of their back pocket and yes, do hold the ultimate sanction which a state school can just about never use these days, of expulsion! The state sector cannot actually remove a child from its educational clutches, however unteachable that is, whereas privates can do it with impunity.

Litten agreed that financially they are better but by golly some are undesirable !!!

I read that as 'other issues' meaning, lack of resources, weak teaching, imposed government iniatives which mean less actual teaching and learning is going on, over testing etc...

Yes, that was what I was getting at. Seems some people would read it differently. I wonder what they mean and why they are so sensitive?

*For the record while I think the principle the OP is getting at is a good one, the system that has been proposed would not be viable for all of the reasons above ^

Also Children with special needs deserve to be in classes where teachers have time for them, equally 'average' kids deserve to be in classes where teachers have time for them. In a class of 30 this is Ime not always possible. In a (mixed) class of 15 much more so.*

I also agree 100% with everything said here too.

That is as maybe but they will cream off the RG university places and the subsequent positions of power and influence in our society!

Sorry, my response was back to talkinpeace, not jabed!

pastoralacademiaWed 18-Apr-12 18:30:31

'Respect for the teacher is the issue ' Respect is earned.

I dont think we are really discussing " respect" in this context. I think what we should be talking about in terms of behaviour is simple good manners and common courtesy - something that children should learn and afford to anyone and everyone.

To other people you are your behaviour. Your manners are alwats on show. You need to make sure you demonstrate good ones always. Children cannot mouth off at adults and then demand that adults "respect" them. Thats not how we work in every day life. Too little courtesy and too few good manners are the problem here, not "respect".

As for "respect being earned" - especially that of teachers or other appropriate adults from small children - thats a load of BS. Respect should be something that is given to another automatically and is lost when someone does not behave appropriately. Some silly edu blokie came up with this daft idea of earning respect and everyone has been trying to deal with that red herring ever since.

Jabed you can have special needs and still be very bright.

I am hopefully about to send a student on our SEN register to Oxford.

Spmething I used to say to some of the rag tag bunch of arrogant lower class (yes , call me a snob for that one) yobs I used to teach. One favourite phrase from them was " You have to earn my respect" whenever I asked them to do something simple like sit down or answer to their name on the register ( or sometimes God forbid , do some work in class) .

My answer was the same each time " I do not care if you respect me. I do not care if you even like me, however, you will obey me. You are a pupil, I am the teacher. It is my role to tell you what to do and yours to do as you are told. Its called social roles and expectations. Get on with it".

I didnt mention anything about SN. All I said was other issues. I do think though that all children need to be given an appropriate education in a class appropriate to them and with a teacher who has the skills to help them learn and to support them.

I find class size interesting. DS is in Year 3 and in a class of 35. Last year due to the infant class size regulations, his year was in two classes of 17 (they've gained an extra child in year 3). I am pretty sure that all the children benefitted in some way from the smaller class size and I'm sure that the teachers were able to give more individual attention to the children.

He is fine in the larger class this year but without trying to sound like a typical Mumsnetter, he is fairly bright and at the top end of the class and although he definitely is challenged, I think he is in a better position than say a middle of the class child who could more easily blend into the background in a larger class.

I wouldn't pay £1,000 though - I really can't see how that would work out.

No, I disagree with it - as previous posters have said - back door privatisation. Besides who would decide? Who would do the means testing? Would it be worked out as clearly as the new Child Benefit system? Would we all be heading up to the school with bank statements etc?

I stand by what I've said: RESPECT IS EARNED and that does not apply just to teachers. Children are not the role models here, adults are.

www.empowermentresources.com/info2/childrenlearn-long_version.html

You might call it BS but it works. I am not religious but I go by ?treat people the way you want to be treated.?

I have seen too many teachers and parents humiliating, insulting, talking down to children so why expect any different. The use of sarcasm is a norm in this country. The absence of hugs and warmth is almost nonexistent.
Sad really!

"To other people you are your behaviour. Your manners are alwats on show. You need to make sure you demonstrate good ones always" I tottaly agree with you on this. I just feel it applys to everyone including teachers and all adults.

applies

totally
Sorry my eye sight :(

Pastoral I agree with you very much on this. Since I?ve arrived to England I am in constant shock at how children are treated here. I find it very sad. They are not welcome anywhere! They are treated in a very cold and uncaring manner. The sarcasm? Why is it acceptable to talk to children in this way?

www.barnardos.org.uk/news_and_events/media_centre/press_releases.htm?ref=42088

BlueElephant You can check this article it might help.