Would you take the option of paying say £1000 pa to your 'state school' for smaller classes etc?

[ampere]

Purely a hypothetical, of course!- but if the option was there to make an up-front annual payment to your DC's school to 'improve' things like staff:pupil ratios, or greater small group learning opportunities and so forth, would you?

What about a means-testing of contribution? Please bear in mind this is a hypothetical! I am maybe imagining a Free School of the future which has legally been allowed to fly the governmental clutches in order to do this, say.

I know where I live I believe the reality is most parents could afford £1000, so if there are 60 DC in a year, and say 2/3 of parents pay that sum (or all pay less, whatever) you'd have enough cash to be able to reduce the class sizes to 3 of twenty DC, if not full-time, then much of it!

The only 'rule' I would like to impose is that before you explode at the unfairness and iniquity of this as not all parents can spare any money and that this can only benefit 'the wealthy' I want to ask how vocally you currently oppose private education (where he who pays wins) and grammar schools as they only benefit 'the clever'. Just a thought.

This has gone through my mind as I pay just about that per year to get DS2 tutored as it is!

I'd much rather we all paid more taxes, and every school was funded with an extra 1000 pounds per child.

30 down to 15 would attract attention but let's face it, you still couldn't guarantee the quality of the teaching so it might be a real waste of money over which you would feel very aggrieved.

'I would want a guarentee that my DC would be in a class of well behaved children , free from behavioural problems and other issues.'

What other issues?

It would mean that shools in leafy suburbs where many could afford the subsidy would have much smaller class sizes than inner city schools in less affluent areas. Which schools do you think need smaller class sizes most? I'm not in favour.

Lol Jabed's post demonstrates beautifully why it would never work

Lovely attitude

Jabebs post is bloody disgusting.

I'm sorry I don't understand why it is 'disgusting' to not want your child in a class full of disruptive, badly behaved children?

Although I don't think the extra funding from parents is a good idea because of the inequality it would cause between rich and poor areas.

Except it's scary being a shy primary school kid in a class containing swearing, violent children and a weak teacher. Most of us wouldn't choose to spend each day in that atmosphere. Rich people don't have to because they pay to get out.

You're too quick for me - my post was to usualsuspect

No becuase I don;t have £1000 to spare and even if I did I don;t see why that should entitle my child to a "better" class size than the person next door

And 30 in DS's class (as I had 40 years ago) seems fine to me, particularly with a TA full time.

'I'm sorry I don't understand why it is 'disgusting' to not want your child in a class full of disruptive, badly behaved children?'

Because the way it was put made it sound very much like jabed was talking about not wanting your child in a class with children with SNs rather than just badly behaved children.

But of course it may just have been badly put - which was why I asked what was meant.

Other issues? What like children with SNs

I would. My DC go to a very 'economically mixed backgrounds' state school and it's an interesting experience but I'm not sure having 30 kids, 10 of which can't count to ten at the age of five is providing the right amount of support to any of them frankly.

whomoved - I don;t have the same experience here - also a very mixed catchment. DS seems to be progressing just fine and plenty are ahead of him and he likes school.

Maybe I'm spoilt.

I read that as 'other issues' meaning, lack of resources, weak teaching, imposed government iniatives which mean less actual teaching and learning is going on, over testing etc...

For the record while I think the principle the OP is getting at is a good one, the system that has been proposed would not be viable for all of the reasons above ^

Also Children with special needs deserve to be in classes where teachers have time for them, equally 'average' kids deserve to be in classes where teachers have time for them. In a class of 30 this is Ime not always possible. In a (mixed) class of 15 much more so.

Class size is not the issue.
Respect for the teacher is the issue - in south Korea the classes are huge (upwards of 60) but the teachers are highly respected professionals
and the learning is by rote admittedly

the amount of threads about parents dissing their kids teachers is the REAL reason for poor class discipline in the UK .
If you slag off your DCs teachers, why should your DCs obey them?

Completely agree that class size is a red herring - it is the quality of teaching that matters most. I went to a primary with a mixed intake and the best year of all had an amazingly inspiring teacher in a class of 40+ - other years pretty mediocre teaching - same class size. All governemtns are too scared to touch the hot potato of teacher quality, whereas it is only to obvious to the DC and parents which teachers are inspiring and which ones hide behind crowd control as an excuse for their lack of ability.

Very well put MrsGuyOfGisbourne. May I just point out to another element -THE HANGER FOR LEARNING, without it nothing can be achieved. If everyone wants to be a singer or a footballer then...?

'Respect for the teacher is the issue ' Respect is earned.

I'm assuming that was supposed to be the *hunger for learning?

xD

pastoral
how would you suggest the teachers go about "earning" respect
when they are constantly put down and slagged off by know it all politicians and parents?
when they have no real sanctions, are not terribly well paid

in this country at least

in Korea teachers earn more than MPs ....

I see other people have all ready pointed out that class size doesn't make much difference to outcomes, its the quality of the teacher and the support of parents that makes a difference.

I disagree about class sizes being a red herring. It has been demonstrated (google it!) that larger class size becomes far less of an issue if the DC concerned are a) of a very similar ability, i.e. banded or set properly and b) in a disciplined environment.

Even Xenia herself talks of classes of 25 at her DDs very expensive but highly selective north London private schools where the classes crack along at a fast pace because everyone in that class can keep up.

However, back here on Earth, how can it not help if a teacher, with a 'period' in which to teach a class, can get around the whole class and offer each DC twice as much individual time if there are half as many children in the class?!! And if those DC are from a wider range of abilities?

You can be as high a quality teacher as you like but you ain't gonna be heard above the kids chucking chairs around that classroom, are you? I went to a state girls GS. We had some very high 'quality teachers there. They'd've been instant mincemeat in many of our modern comprehensive. Torn apart.

The reality is there is a limited supply of 'quality' teachers, like there is a limited supply of quality-anything, professionally, so we are 'left' with many who are 'good' and 'adequate'. They would be extremely likely to get better results from DC in smaller classes, would they not?

Like jabed, I'm afraid that 'I blame the parents'. The damage to children from 'suboptimal' backgrounds has been scientifically demonstrated to have occurred within the first 18 or so months of life. Hence SureStart. By 7 they will have been 'overtaken' by less able DCs from better family backgrounds because successful education is a 3 legged stool: child/teacher/parent.

And I too actually don't want the more unfortunate results of that parenting in my DCs class either, though I recognise that it is in Society's interest to help those DC as much as is possible.

Class sizes are only the main issue In areas where people are already effectively paying to send their children to good schools ie in good catchments.

In poor schools, class sizes, poverty, poor diet, lack of parental support are bigger issues.

My dc are in private school but I don't think you'd be making education better for all simply making the children who are already in a privileged position of going to an even better school, effectively like private.

It's a bit like saying would you send them private if you could afford it.