Independent education: arguments in favour?

[Notnowcato]

I had a good state education in a single sex grammar school. I wasn't tutored in any way for the 11-plus and so there was no pressure about passing it. I loved learning, the company of my peers, my teachers etc. My husband had a similar experience. Before our children reached school age, we had no thoughts of doing anything other than sending our three children to our catchment-area state schools.

Sadly, after six years of state primary schools, and having visited all of the nearest state secondaries, I am depressed by what is ahead of us if we stay in the state system. The main problems seem to me to be: business managers rather than educationalists leading schools, semi-illiterate communications (head teachers' PowerPoint presentations, web sites, printed material) revealing ill-educated staff, terrible lack of maintenance of the buildings and facilities, poorly equipped classrooms and libraries, ridiculously narrow choices at GCSE and A level, absurd rules about wearing blazers at all times because this 'makes [sic] the children respect their school', the compulsion to take GCSEs in years 9 and 10 as well as 11, the sheer size of the schools ... and so on.

So ... my husband and I are starting to explore the idea of independent schools. Well, I am. My husband keeps asking why anyone would want to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds (we have three children) when education is provided by the state at no cost up to the age of 18. If you had the task of convincing a curmudgeonly old man that the cost would be justified what would you say? What are the main arguments in favour of private schools? Or don't you think there are any, in which case, please relight my enthusiasm for the state sector.

If it helps: DD is highly academic (especially literacy), quiet, well-behaved, cheerful, gets on with life; DS1 is arty, sensitive, bright, definitely not sporty; DS2 is 4 so can't say much except that he is old for his year and seems perfectly normal!

Sorry for the long post.

There is nothing wrong with making sacrifices to send DCs to private school but you need to recognise that private ed is every bit a luxury purchase as buying a merc or going on holiday to the Seychelles. If you are spending your money on the fancy cars and holidays and the proverbial hits the fan then you cancel the holiday and the merc gets repossessed but the kids still go to the same school. If your luxury purchase is school fees then it is your DCs education which is directly affected if things go wrong.

If you go into private ed thinking it is going to be struggle to meet the fees from the outset then you are living beyond your means. School fee inflation generally outstrips wage inflation. This is entirely cynical by the schools (IMO). They get you in then after a couple of years you will mortgage your grandmother rather than risk having to send the DCs to the local comp which has now been demonised in your head.

Anyone can loose their job and find they can't afford the fees and at £33000 pa I suspect few believe fees are a luxury on a par with holidays in the Seychelles especially if you have more than DC at the school. But on that basis you wouldn't do anything so I for one and I suspect there are many out there like me take a chance that all will be alright.

I had 2 years fees saved before we started and when they ran out I got a job, when DS starts school I will have a better job if not I shall have to sleep with the head master. The poor sod.

well.... OP asked for comments. I always feel I should speak up for state education - it gets too much bashing, and much of it seems unfair. No, we don't have Latin or a lot of things I'd like in an ideal world - but nor are bright children routinely done down, or bullied - and threads on here about suing private schools or being managed out of them suggest all is not always rosy on the other side of the fence either.

I've taught bright, motivated, polite students from both sectors - and I've taught 'entitled' students from private schools who talk others down, and lazy students from state schools who can't structure a sentence properly - and, to be fair, vice versa.

Sorry I havent read the thread but my positives are that I wanted single sex education from year 5 onwards and loads of sport and music.

No state school child entering dds private school at year 7 (there are a few) are in the sports teams and that is important to dh and myself, hence choosing prep over state primary.

My year 4 daughter has just taken an English speaking board exam and passed with distinctions in all areas - this means she can give a talk with no prompts for 3 minutes, learn and recite a poem from memory and read a passage from a book and answer questions from an independent examiner. Although this exam isnt necessarily the preserve of the independent sector - any school could enter - her school took time to coach her. I happen to think that learning these skills are invaluable.

Also: children have amazing manners, regularly visit other schools to play sport and demonstrate fantastic sportsmanship, learn Latin, explore subjects in depth and - dare I say it - meet a huge variety of nationalities and types of people which they just don't in the rural state sector.

Having been a teacher and teaching assistant as well as a mother I feel the biggest problem in most schools is the standard of behaviour of the children or you could say the discipline.

My dd (12) fortunately got a place at a very good faith school in our city where I feel one of the main benefits is she is with other children who want to learn and know how to behave. This in turn means that the teachers are able to do their job of teaching the children, without the stress and de-motivation of constantly dealing with bad behaviour, a poor attitude, and rudeness.

We hope our son will be able to follow his sister to this school in the next couple of years.

I think that if independent schools often have the edge over state schools it is largely because of the intake of children that they have. This then enables them to concentrate on achieving academic excellence and developing well-rounded children. But I don't think it's a level playing field !

Just wanted to say what a great thread this is. Thanks OP for asking this question.

Jabed- very true what you are saying, fantastic posts.

Sorry to have been away for the last little while: minor op, now recovering at home. Glad the post has been of interest to others too. I am finding it v. useful although, perhaps, slightly saddening.

Notnowcato, hope you have a speedy recovery from the op.

I know what you mean about it all being a bit saddening.

Pastoralacademia, I completely agree that Jabed's posts are excellent and enlightening although in some ways saddening as Notwithcato says in the sense that my worst fears are actually very real.

I really do see jabed' point and tend to agree with him and xenia. Their post maybe too blunt but they do hold some truth. MOving my DS1 (7+) to indie in sept 2012 and DS2 (YR or Kindergerten) will be joining him too.

Middle class values knows no racial, ethnic or religious affiliation at all. My DS1 is doing quite well in his state school but little things have been happening in the circa 3 years of his time there that has made us decide to move him ASAP (original plan was to save up for inde secondary).

I am not a snob in any way, I only went to state schools myself, i passed an exam for a selective all girls excellent privae secondary school but kicked up so much fuss about it my parents relented and let me go to the local secondary school.

I did ok, I didn't work hard, I got in with the wrong crowd but got ok results as found the academic side easy.

Basically the original reason I wanted my boys in private school was to make sure they knuckled down and reached their full potential when it really matters. Also, the quality of the secondary schools in our area is really awful and way below national average.

Since then the quality of the local schools has gone down even more (in the 18 months since DS1 started school). Infant schools are fab, there is now only 1 Junior school that has been rated good recently, the others have been visited by Ofsted this year and are now satisfactory or inadequate. All local secondarys are satisfactory or worse. I have no idea whi they are so bad but GCSE results are low 30%s and they are not in 'deprived' areas.

I believe that the small class sizes, a high expectation of behaviour and good quality teaching is what my children will get in the school I have chosen. It won't be perfect - no school is but I believe I am giving them the best opportunity I can.

They are taught manners and respect - something that never happened in my secondary school, it was normal for pupils to shout & swear at teachers and sometimes worse, it wasn't considered a particularly awful thing to do in my school (it wasn't even the worst school in the area). The teaching was inconsistent at best and no one really cared.

I know not all private schools will be any better than state, if I was lucky enough to live near good schools I wouldn't be so worried and would happily put them through the state system but I don't and i am not willing to take any chances on my DCs futures!

AfricanExport - totally agree with everything you said and also JugglingWithTangentialOranges, these are such good reasons for going to private schools and good faith schools. We have some really good catholic schools nearby but we are not catholic so we wouldn't want them to go there. The behaviour and discipline is so well instilled in the children.

I love competitive sports as well, how on earth will the new generation of children manage in a job interview without learning about 'healthy' competition.

amicissimma: Thanks for the information about extra costs. What you say agrees with experiences of friends in my local area whose children are at private schools. Interesting point about secondhand uniform because, yes, the people I know do use the schools' secondhand uniform shops and that way get good quality clothing that seems to have been made to last! Which doesn't seem the case for the blazers being worn at our local just-become-an-academy.

accountantsrule: Manners and behaviour ? YES!!! I am so old-fashioned about this and am frequently rendered speechless by the way my DC's friends speak to me when they come to play here. Also very much respect your point about competitive sports. I was rubbish at sport at school and consequently learnt much and quickly about being a good/graceful loser, but also about how important it was to try and to do your best for the team. I always thought I would want to protect my children from the hours of misery I endured on hockey fields but I am revising that view in the light of quite a few of the comments posted on this discussion.

mumat39: Thanks for good wishes. Silly little op, very painful and slow recovery! But I'm doing well.

Think that is an absolutely fascinating post from jabed. Thank you.

jabed- you should post more often.

"No state school child entering dds private school at year 7 (there are a few) are in the sports teams and that is important to dh and myself, hence choosing prep over state primary."

I find that astounding! Plenty of kids from state schools have strolled into the rugby and football team at my DS's independent senior school (my DS included). Surely joining a Saturday rugby/football league team would be a more economical way of making sure they're "up to scratch" in the sports department?

It may be more economical in terms of money but not in terms of value or time. I have not the time or inclination to drive my children around to clubs after school, often the coaching and standard for children is not as good either.

I agree with you though, I do find it astounding but it is the norm here. Not a HUGE amount join indies from state at yr 7 though. You cannot beat a good prep school sports education - the kids are used to doing it in school and organising themselves for a start rather than relying on parents to jolly them along out of school.

We're choosing independent schools for secondary after state primary school. The main reason, repeated so often on here, is because we're fed up of our kids 'meeting targets' which are way way below their capabilities and being treated like abnormally pushy parents for just wanting our children to thrive academically.

I can't bear the idea of them wasting seven years of their lives in a big class full of disruption and indifference to learning. Over easter I taught on a playscheme and some of the girls came up to me wistfully after wards and said they wished school was like our (academic) class. I asked why it wasn't. They said the teachers spent their entire time controlling poor behaviour from a handful of boys, so they never learned anything. The state school i went to wasn't that bad but there was strong peer pressure to coast and underachieve, and even some aggression from teachers towards pupils who were brighter or keener than the teachers were themselves.

Wandering around the local indie recently I looked through the classroom windows at a group of 13-14 year old boys. All desks faced front, eyes on the teacher, respect for the teacher, all spines were straight and half the class had their hands up to answer a question. I'm happy to pay for that.

The flip side is snobbery and arrogance, I know that, but I'd rather try to temper that in an ambitious, hard working environment than coax enthusiasm into someone who'll get ostracised for wanting to do well in an environment where crowd control takes precedence over academic work.

OP, you mention your elder child is a boy, is academic, especially literacy - in which case I would definitely recommed looking at independent schools since the risk of 'too cool for school' is something I would worry about at some state comprehensives.