Independent education: arguments in favour?

[Notnowcato]

I had a good state education in a single sex grammar school. I wasn't tutored in any way for the 11-plus and so there was no pressure about passing it. I loved learning, the company of my peers, my teachers etc. My husband had a similar experience. Before our children reached school age, we had no thoughts of doing anything other than sending our three children to our catchment-area state schools.

Sadly, after six years of state primary schools, and having visited all of the nearest state secondaries, I am depressed by what is ahead of us if we stay in the state system. The main problems seem to me to be: business managers rather than educationalists leading schools, semi-illiterate communications (head teachers' PowerPoint presentations, web sites, printed material) revealing ill-educated staff, terrible lack of maintenance of the buildings and facilities, poorly equipped classrooms and libraries, ridiculously narrow choices at GCSE and A level, absurd rules about wearing blazers at all times because this 'makes [sic] the children respect their school', the compulsion to take GCSEs in years 9 and 10 as well as 11, the sheer size of the schools ... and so on.

So ... my husband and I are starting to explore the idea of independent schools. Well, I am. My husband keeps asking why anyone would want to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds (we have three children) when education is provided by the state at no cost up to the age of 18. If you had the task of convincing a curmudgeonly old man that the cost would be justified what would you say? What are the main arguments in favour of private schools? Or don't you think there are any, in which case, please relight my enthusiasm for the state sector.

If it helps: DD is highly academic (especially literacy), quiet, well-behaved, cheerful, gets on with life; DS1 is arty, sensitive, bright, definitely not sporty; DS2 is 4 so can't say much except that he is old for his year and seems perfectly normal!

Sorry for the long post.

Why are you on this this thread then naughty. It is asking for arguments in favour of independent education, not against it.

If you don't actually use private education at this moment in time, how can you have a valid comment to make? I wouldn't go on a thread about current holiday cottages in Cornwall, 'cos I don't use them.

If you read my first post dh is trying to convince me to send ours private at 11. So the

Apologies naughty I see that post is in your name.

I have to say I was blown away the first time I looked at an independent secondary. I have viewed 5 so far, and thought one was dismal, two were fantastic and the other two were everything I have ever wanted in a school. Have a look at some others. Where do you live?

I am not against private education at all. Having been state educated myself I have my doubts. Which I thought might be challenged. I think there are potentially lots of good reasons for privately educating dcs, but so they feel special/entittled and so they are labelled average aren't 2of them

Sorry not labelled average

Diabolo, Op says this:

"What are the main arguments in favour of private schools? Or don't you think there are any, in which case, please relight my enthusiasm for the state sector."

Thanks TheOriginal.

But that doesn't say "please make sweeping generalisations about independent education even though you don't use it".

It also doesn't say 'if you don't use it, don't comment' .

Fair enough. It was intended as a tongue in cheek comment to naughtymummy.

I really object to the idea that children in independent education are molly-coddled, don't know to cook or clean, think they are "special" and are in fact, just mediocre.

The state sector does far more molly-coddling of children than any independent I have ever seen.

I work in a state school and have done for many years. DS used to be at an "outstanding primary". I do see both sides of the argument.

If my DS is lucky enough to get into the very over-subscribed outstanding state school which is our first state choice, then I will seriously consider it. But it's not a patch on the independent school we like, be that academically, sports-wise, pastorally or even in terms of its ethnicity. The state school is far more "white, middle class" and with that comes the competitive parenting I have come to loathe.

Those are my concerns Diabolo. Ds is highly academic (we think). The best independant round here has single form entry and class sizes of 15 mixed ability. Thats a sight more mollycoddling than the top stream of 30 boys within a year group of 250,

More intellectually stimulating too I would think.

Yes, when state school children come into my children's schools later than others they are much less able to be independent, work out when they have to go where and the like. One of teh things I pay school fees for is to ensure teh children are able to cope with anything. They camp. They take physical risks. They care for the elderly and sick. they are exposed to a huge range of experiences. They end up much more competent, independent and coherent and able to manage (our empire was built on what the schools produce, they don't cave in under pressure), they race to win, they understand competitiveness which you very much need at work and in the world.

The thinking you are special isn't what they get in these schools although these schools produce in many cases the majority of those who succeed in the UK even though they make up 7% of children (thus there is little better you can buy in the UK as good as a private school place in a good school). You might obtain "confidence" which is definitely worth having.

I don't agree about being told you are good. I would argue the ooposite. You might in some schools have class positions. You might get red pen on your working saying you did something badly whereas some mediocre state schools say everyone is brilliant even if they were last in the race. The conning of the children is in the state not private sector.

When we went to see,it was all "oh, it's a family blah, blah, blah. Well fair enough if you board, but ds's family is his family. I can boost his self esteem and tell him he's great. I don't want that from school. I want him challenged and streched and appropriately sat.

These are my concerns about my child. I am not generalising ,I am sure it's just what some dcs need (and not availble in the state system at secondary)©

naughty I am not the right person to speak to about highly academic offspring.

My DS is bright enough - in his 5 or 6 favourite subjects we have been told he is on track for A or A* at GCSE and his current school wants to put him forward for an academic scholarship to secondary.

They are a little cross with us however, as the secondary we have chosen is not academically selective - I can't stand the thought of exam factories churning out 12 A* at the expense of enjoying your school years, missing sport and extra-curricular activities and so on. Some very selective schools do ask children to leave if they think their results might affect their status in the league tables, and before anyone questions this, I know 2 teachers where I work, with children in private secondaries, who this has happened to.

So we have chosen the "all-round" option for him. Good exam results, but not at the expense of happiness. Small classes, pastorally excellent and quite diverse for an independent. DS loved it on our visits, miles and miles of grounds, close-knit "houses". It seemed amazing.

The "molly coddling" I refer to is that if a piece of clothing is lost, children where I work go to the school office and get a member of staff to help them look for it, parents are allowed to bring in "late" homework so their DC don't get into trouble, any minor injury requires an hour in the First Aid room, extra "Easter School" in the holidays to bring the Level 3's up to a 4 for their SATS. (What about the 4's who might achieve a 5? - totally ignored).

Rant over.

But Xeina those parents have removed those chidren from state school. They are likely to be the ones who coped less well there also.
My experience is the polar opposite. At University the privately educated kids want it spoon fed ,on a plate. The state educated can direct their own learning (although they can't read greek)

Self esteem and self confidence IMO go hand in hand with being stretched and challenged. Of course we can tell our DCs how wonderful they are but it is important that it happens at school too if activities etc merit it
. I am not talking about hollow praise. Different children can gain self esteem in a number of ways one of mine gains it from performing well academically and the other feels good about them selves from performing in school teams etc. this has a knock on effect on their academic work too. There is no reason why this can't happen in state or private schools but ime the private sector has more time/ resources etc to look for that special skills each child possesses.

He sounds quite academic to me diabolo.Maybe my standards are lower. At the dcs school(primary) they are expected to keep track of their possesions and have the appropriate kit with them. Although I think they do help year R.

naughty I have to go in a minute.

I took my DS out of an Ofsted Outstanding state primary, because it swathed him in cotton wool, told him he was marvellous at everything, gave everyone a carrot for taking part in the (non-competitive) sports day and was more concerned with environmental well-being than learning.

I have to say, that, in direct opposition to your experience, mine is that it is some state school children who are unable to cope in the wider world, as they are so used to direction and being automatically included in everything.

Well I teach med students.and the entry criteria are 3As. I didn't really want to say this cos its well off topic, but I think it might take less to get your 3As at private school,so the state school kids have done it off their own back. I have no evidence for this,it is just my own highly controversial theory. I am very wary of feeling like this as I am aware I am being prejudiced towards those from private schools.

Well I'd like to see the % of med students from state and private. I cannot think of a single doctor I know that went to state school. Not one.

Yes but the private school ones do massively better in life on all kinds of scores. They tend to earn more. They tend to speak better too and in many jobs how you speak matters. It is no contest really. The 7% get 50% of the best university places. Something like 72% of judges are private exucated and 10% went to grammar schools. Look at the cabinet. Look at boards. Even if we analysed what we earn on this thread I bet those of us who went to private schools earn more in our 20s - 50s and beyond. It is ahuge advantage and well worth what really isn't that much money (if you as a woman picked a career which enables you to afford things which not all women had the sense to do of course...)

An A is an A. So is an A*. The private school are some of the best in the world and our staet schools are some of the worst, so bad some people send their chidlren back to Jamaica to get a better state school education than in the UK. Our private schools are the envy of the world and people send their chidlren to them from all over. It is the best of the best.

I did. It was about 20% in my year

"I think it might take less to get your 3As at private school,so the state school kids have done it off their own back. I have no evidence for this,it is just my own highly controversial theory. I am very wary of feeling like this as I am aware I am being prejudiced towards those from private schools"

This may well be true in some cases, but state schools are not all the same - there are some which are highly supportive and some where the kids really have to swim against the tide to do well. Unless you know the school in question, it's pretty unfair to judge kids by the type of school they went to, and to make assumptions about how well or badly they would have done had they gone somewhere else.

If that is the case ( although I know how hard my DC have worked both at school and in the holidays revising so I disagree in my experience) then may be those state schools that are not teaching properly should be fined or similar. As at 6th form there should not be bad behaviour in either sector as they are choosing to be there. Some state schools are fantastic, not the ones in our area but there are others that are letting their pupils down. The good state and private schools are then being penalised as their students perform well because they are taught well and work hard but are viewed as having an easy ride and one gets the impression that (not from naughtymummy )that our DCs are merely handed their A 2grades on a plate.