Would you send your kids to private school if money were no option?

[Beetroot]

and if so why? or why not?

Mine go to a private school. I justyfy it tom myslef becase they are specialist musicanans, they have 'special needs' which would not be fufilled in the state sector (round 'ere anyway)

Was totally against it though, until I fell into it by mistake!

Celia ~ I see that same sort of arrogance in some of the pupils at DH's school. One bus company has reported them as being the worst behaved out of all the city schools. I tend to think that these children would be the same whatever school they went too. They're a product of their parents attitudes more than the school's attitude.

I guess my personal experience and Celia's tie in with it being a matter of where you live. Round here, the state schools are so good that you really have to have more money than sense to go private (thus the children who go there do tend to be from families with more money than sense!). None of the selective private schools achieve GCSE results that come even close to the two main non-selective state schools.
As for primary schools - the state primary schools here are all little village schools (all less than 80 kids in total), and the local prep school is huge (400 children, lots coming from far afield) so the class sizes there are actually much bigger than at a state school.

as for private schools still offering a good representation of society because parents go without foreign holidays to be able to afford to send their children to private school - my dd's best friend's mum can't even afford school shoes for her children. They wear PE pumps to school. Where exactly could she scrimp a bit more?

Wordsmith, your post was very eloquent and could have expressed my views exactly before I became a teacher in the state sector and had children. I think we'd all like to believe in 'equality of opportunity' but, even without private schooling, there's really no such thing in education in this country.

As many of you who have not gone down the private school route admit, you are lucky enough to have a good local primary and secondary school. Except this probably isn't just 'lucky' is it? If your local school is good the chances are you live in a nice area which will be reflected in the house prices or else, like you, Wordsmith, your children go to a church school which may have, like one of my friend's experience, meant that you had to start going to church twice a month for a year before applying there (my friend is actually an atheist so, of course, this is entirely against her principles). Now, I've got another friend who can't afford to buy a house in a nice area or go to a C of E or Catholic school (she's a Muslim which makes this a little bit tricky) but, oddly enough, she can get a bursary to pay 100% of the fees for her child to go to private school.

I just get really cross when people say they would never send their kids to private school 'on principle' yet they don't recognize the privileges they have or principles they break when they 1) research their local schools in the first place (it really helps if you have the Internet and a great deal of skill and knowledge to be able to track down and interpret the league tables and inspection reports - not opportunities available to everyone) 2) live in an area where there are good schools or alternatively 3) be able to apply to a church school. If people really stuck by their principles in that they wouldn't pay for their children's education or give them any more privileges than Rahela, single mum of three kids, who's unemployed and can't drive has, then they wouldn't move houses to get into a good catchment, wouldn't go to a church school or a selective school of any kind and wouldn't pay for private tutoring etc etc. I wonder how many people who wouldn't send their kids to private school on principle would also not use a private dentist or hospital treatment if that became necessary too. And should everyone live in a 1 bed council flat too and refuse to take driving lessons or go to university because Rahela and Billy down the road can't afford anything better?

When you compare the league tables year on year it's really noticeable how generally speaking the good schools keep on getting better and the bad schools get worse or remain relatively static. There's also a massive difference between church schools, selective state schools etc. I wonder why? So much for equality of opportunity.

Quite, springintheair. There's a lot of "No I wouldn't do it, my dd/ds is at a great local school we can walk to, and did I mention we made the catchment area when we moved last year..." etc.

In my bit of SE London there are numerous decent primaries and houseprices are low by London standards.

fair point and well put, springintheair.

did someone REALLY say on this thread that private schools offer a good representation of society
does anyone really believe that?
total, total nonsense

I really don't understand your point springintheair
because there are inequalities in society it is OK to continue to perpetuate them?

and because it would be against my principles to send my children to a private school therefore I don't appreciate my privileges

total non sequitur imho

Agree 100%, spring.

Wordsmith, how old are your children? I only ask because I probably could have written your post 7 years ago, when dd1 was happy in the reception class at her nice mixed state primary school. Only it went downhill from there: she got bored, she got resentful, lippy and cynical, started saying she hated school, had a headache, tummyache, whatever. By Y5 she seemed to be spending as much time standing outside the classroom as in it. It wasn't entirely the school's fault -- they had trouble recruiting/keeping decent teachers, the class had a bad reputation for being disruptive, and they were restricted by the demands of SATS and the National Curriculum, which were in no way appropriate targets for dd1.

She has now qualified for a place at a selective state grammar school, which I think will probably meet her (slightly left-field) needs. But if there hadn't been the option of a state school that we felt would suit her, would we have beggared ourselves to go private? Without a doubt. Is that fair? Of course not. But I've watched my dd1 struggle with school for 7 blinking years, and we're all sick to the gills of it.

Ds is at the same primary school, and though there are shortcomings we need to make up at home, he is happy and the school is broadly meeting his needs. But I defy anybody to watch their child being unhappy at school, year after year, hating school and the teachers clearly also disliking her, and still maintain they would turn down a free place at a school which was likely to meet their child's needs better.

I wish that I had gone to a private school, I am really pleased that I can pay for my kids to go to one. Going to a state comp in a rough area did not make me more tolerant or closer to a larger cross section of society. At the school I went to I was "posh" and "swotty" and got punished for it on a daily basis. I really resent my parents political leanings making my education into a social experiment.

I taught in the state and the independant sector and I would choose the independant sector every time. Class sizes and equipment make all the difference in the world to the teaching experience.

Yes - would definitely do it. The local primaries near me are great, the secondaries pushing average at best.

I admire people who have principles and stick to them. Personally, I've found my principles have shifted somewhat since I've had my dd and I am quite simply not prepared to send her to a lower performing school than the one I went to (which was my local state comp - sadly don't live there anymore).

So, how come a lot of us live near good state primaries but the local state secondary isn't good?

It would definitely be interesting to know how people assess that their state school primaries are great.

Secondaries draw on larger catchments, including kids' whose parents simply can't afford private. Many of the kids with the most most privileged backgrounds/most concerned parents get creamed off to private education, so the secondaries get left with the less able kids (on average). The difficulties that this presents to the secondaries, in terms of being able to cater for a range of abilities and minimise disruptive behavioral problems, is one of the principles against private schooling.

The irony of this thread is that there are price differenctials around good state schools; either houses or the general costs of living are more expensive in these areas. So to get in the catchment for a "good state school" can cost you almost as much as going private. But at least you live somewhere nice and your child is at a good school, as a bonus.

Geekgrrl, if you're in N Yorkshire though, whilst there are some very good state schools, there are also plenty of fairly average ones too? Not everyone can be in the catchment area for the two best ones.

of course, IMO, one way or another (ie based on where we choose to live) we "buy" our kids' education as far as we can. If I had plenty of money I would definitely choose to buy them the further advantages that I'm convinced a decent private education offer. Having said that, I still think private schools have to be selected with care - there are some poor ones out there. I also wouldn't choose a school where my kids would feel out of place - if too posh/too bookish/too keeping up with the Jonesish...

We were both state educated in the old grammar school system. Never believed in private education. Don't things change when you have children?! We live in the North East and the state schools although not terrible are not good. There are a handful of very good academic independent schools (all around £8k a year) and a handful of "posh" independent schools (similar price and upwards). DS1 and DS2 go to different academic independent schools. It is rubbish to say they don't mix with kids from all walks of life. DS1's school offers full burseries to academic children from families who would have no hope of affording the fees. There is a hugely greater ethnic mix in the private sector in the north east than in the state sector. Also there are very many children from very "ordinary" backgrounds. Many families where parents work at extra jobs to keep the children at the school. Our boys have friends across a huge social divide from (literally) mansions to council flats. This means nothing to them! Neither does racial background or sexual orientation (thank God). We have had to sell our house and move to a much cheaper to keep the boys at school but I really feel it is worth it. I can't speak of the "posh" (non academic)local private schools as I have no experience of them or the children that go to them - but I suspect that it is rather a different decision to send your child private just "to mix with the right sort" rather then go private to get the best education you feel you can give them.

Springintheair - I understand your point, and believe me it is one that I have thought long and hard about. And I am lucky in the choice of primary schools (btw it's not a church school - although if the local school was a church school I wouldn't have a problem, our nearly local church school doesn't make the proviso that you have to attend church, it's just the same as any other community primary).

Frogs, my DS is in year 1, he's nearly 6.

But, Harpsichordcarrier, I totally agree with you. There is no point railing against inequalities and at the same time being complicit in their continuance. We cannot change the system for the better by opting out of it!!

I refuse to demonstrate to my child an attitude that reinforces "do as I say, not as I do" - at leats on this subject!

Frog, is my DS was unhappy at the school, was being bullied, was bored or whatever, I would talk to his teachers and try and resolve the situation. If it was not resolved to my satisfaction I would take him out of the school and enrol him in another (state) school. There is a choice of about 4 within reasonable distance of our home. And yes I know we're lucky etc etc.

In fact my DS's lovely little school, 200 pupils, quite mixed intake but in a fairly good area, no real social problems to speak of, is probably going to be merged (because of falling rolls in the LEA) with th school down the road - similar size, but with a slightly less affluent catchment area. Their OFSTED report was good, it seems a nice little school, and has a decent reputation, but judging by some of the reaction of parents at our school you'd think they were talking about merging it with the worst school in the country. Obviously there are concerns re staffing and logistics but the main comments from our parents seem to be along the lines of "their kids are not as nice as ours). I've bitten my tongue so far but if anyone says anything to me about it in the playground I'll let them know how I feel and probably ostracise myself in the process.

ladymuck wrote >>> It would definitely be interesting to know how people assess that their state school primaries are great.

why do you ask? it almost sounds as though you are incredulous at the prospect

the reasons i rate ds's school are (not necessarily in priority order):

• excellent ofsted report
• SATS results > 90% in all of english, maths & science consistently over the last few years
• traditional ethos
• v. high expectations of pupils in terms of behaviour and achievement - backed up with lots of praise and "rewards"
• excellent social, ethnic and cultural mix
• strong partnership with parents
• active parents' association which raises thousands of pounds for the school every year
• after school activities on-site
• head and staff v. approachable
• lots of educational visits/outings starting in the nursery year
• realistic approach to the issues presented by state secondary education in the area
• five minutes walk from the house
• the school is a happy, vibrant community

having said that, we are only one and half terms in! so far, ds has settled in well and is making progress. how good his progress is, is another matter for another thread

would we go private? no, not now, unless things went seriously awry in some way. we plan to reassess at 7 which is the next natural exit point and then again at 11, when i suspect we will either have to move or go private.

i suppose the only measure of how good one's child's school is (whether state or private) is how well it enables them to achieve their potential - which of course one would only know much later on... much like trying to assess how good a parent one is, i suppose!

aah well ladymuck I live just outside Harrogate - the posh bit of N. Yorks.
The Harrogate schools are all very good, two are outstanding.

Last week I had to interview the head of a primary school in the North East for a newsletter I'm working on. The school draws from some of the bottom 10% of wards in the UK. druggie parents are a big problem. Kids come to school regularly having got themself up and dressed and walked/bussed in on their own. Most don't have any breakfast.

I felt like crying as he told me about it but then he went on to tell me about some of the initiatives he was running to support these kids - and the enthusiasm with which he and hs staff approached their job, the enthusaism of the kids for learning, despite parental lack of interest - all reinforced my opinion that it's not just the area you're in that makes a good school, it's the leadership and the school culture.

Schools that look bad on the outside aren't always bad when you take a closer look. If all you do is go by the league tables then you're missing out on a lot of infomration.

Scuse typing I'm not spellchecking and am in a rush!