The Good Schools Guide - how is it decided what goes in and what stays out?

[Auroborea]

Theoretically, it should be simple - good schools are included and reviewed and less good schools stay out. But obviously it's a complex judgement which schools count as 'good' and which don't. I was wondering whether there is anybody on MN who has some knowledge about how the Good Schools Guide makes it inclusion/exclusion decisions? I am wondering about this in regards to the junior (primary/prep) stage in particular, as that's where my kids are getting to at the moment. In our area, it seems, there are lots of great schools, both state and private, but only some of them are reviewed in the Guide. There isn't always the obvious difference between those that are and those that aren't in terms of results and reputation. Is there something we are missing about the schools that aren't, or is this more about the politics of inclusion/exclusion?

We review schools ie we research, talk to everyone we can find, send the sch lists of questions, visit and interview the head - in general - every five years. We go sooner if the head changes - usually after they've been there a year. We edit the whole Guide annually and this gives the schs a chance to update their entry eg if they have a new sports hall, good results etc. However, we update whenever we have new info. So - for example - if we get a series of reports of bullying at a sch and we find that it is not being handled well we will update the entry as and when. One or other sch will be tweaked every day. The new Guide will come out late Jan. There are several new (to us) schs in it - some are state schs.

I believe we are also reviewing - only online, not in the book - as from January - the schools in The Archers! Eg where Beastly Brian has sent Ruairi - (or Roo-airy as Jennifer will have it!)

It seems that ISI reports could be better. It might be worth parents lobbying about this. That having been said, this is the mechanism for joining IAPS so it does play some part in encouraging high standards. On the other hand, I can't recall a school ever being kicked out of the IAPS when standards drop ...

Btw Ofsted have a new facility called Parentview or something similar, which allows parental grading.

There is a parental opinion website called schoolsnet but it is not very well known so there aren't many reviews.

The problem with and for all these opinion websites - and the Ofsted one is the same - is that they are hugely open to abuse. We at The Guide have been, on occasions, lobbied by parental goups, plainly at the instigation of the school, to try and persuade us to review it. We have also had hate campaigns against individual heads etc and all these fora have to be moderated which is time consuming and expensive as MNers know. One head case can screw things up for a hundred perfectly sane and reasonable parents who genuinely want to share experience. Have you looked at Rate My Teachers?

And a couple more things - our website is low on comments at present as it was only launched this summer and not all that many people have realised that we have the comment facility. And you don't need to subscribe to comment - you just need to register which is free.

And, yes, the SATs comment was ours.

We are always wanting moles and, in some areas, new writers. You can write to us in confidence by email if you don't want to post comments and we rely on this kind of parental input in all we do.

IMO the Good Schools Guide could do a lot more in terms of eliciting and publishing hard facts and figures from independent schools that would be helpful to prospective parents and that isn't easily accessible at present.

It could use its clout and the carrot of an entry in the Guide to demand information that parents cannot get.

For example:

• Proportion of entrants at different ages from the state / private sector (useful for parents in judging the odds of getting in, say, at 11 from state) and key "feeder" schools.

• Availability and cost of wrap-around childcare / holiday clubs / transport.

• Financial circumstances of the school (not many schools are charities, so many accounts not published). Expenditure on various items (e.g. I wouldn't want my fees to go on swanky refurbishments rather than teachers' pay or books)

• Proportion of teachers with QTS. Average level of pay for the teachers.

• Class size. Gender breakdown.

Thanks, Dozer, very much, for your thoughtful ideas. Many we have tried and schs just won't play ball. Others are interesting but possibly not really practicable. Others we can certainly ponder!

Whenever we visit a school, we send them two pages of searching questions - many on the kind of data you suggest. Sometimes they play ball, sometimes they don't. However, some data is hugely dependent on variables - demographics, prevailing financial circumstances, new govt initiatives, local lore about a school and its qualities/head/results/scandals etc or changes in admissions criteria. Our reviews - as you will have seen - usually have some info about entrance and admissions criteria and roughly how many come from wherever.

Re yr idea of including stuff abt 'Availability and cost of wrap-around childcare / holiday clubs / transport' - most of this shd be on schs' own websites/in their prospectuses. We'd feel that we were selling the sch if we put this kind of stuff in.

I don't think any school will open their books to us, I'm afraid. I have met heads who don't get to see their own books! Likewise, no way we will get to know abt teachers' pay. And those MNers who are teachers will pipe up on that one, I imagine!

QTs - possibly - but what would that tell you that you don't already know?

We do class size as pupil:teacher ratio in a widget on our site. Can do gender breakdown for non-GSG schools if you ask us nicely!

BTW, this kind of message is hugely helpful. We want to get as much feedback and interaction as we possibly can from everyone. The Good Schools Guide was set up by parents for parents and that's still how it works, in essentials. It's grown hugely and has had to become more professional but I think we all consider ourselves as parents first and writers/educationalists second. And it's our parental instincts we draw on principally when we visit and write up schools.

Most of the changes we make are driven by parental suggestions and ideas.

So - thanks! And - more, please!

That's v interesting bluestocking. The financial stuff is interesting because it is important information that's unavailable to people taking decisions on what school to choose, and the consequences when a school closes are huge for the families (and staff) involved. In the current climate this will surely become more of an issue.

Imagine if independent schools were subject to FOI? Perhaps they should be .....

To those concerned with finances, I would say that a parent or prospective parent should always approach the Bursar or CFO of the school who will, if it's a reputable place, be prepared to talk in general about the schools financial situation. If they wouldn't, alarm bells would ring.

If the school is a charity, their accounts are available via the Charity Commission website.

BoffinMum

a) back from up the thread a bit - some schools explicitly will not accept rolling or provisional notice.

b) they are subject to DPA, so you as parent can ask for any information they hold about your child. This might be illuminating, depending on what you're looking for.

Also, if the school is not a charity, then it'll be a company and you can get annual accounts from Companies' House. The snag is, I'd have no idea how to interpret healthiness of a school from it's accounts (ie I don't know enough about what to look for specifically in evaluating a school, not that I cannot read accounts!)

A handful of private schools close or merge nearly every year. AFAIK there has been no acceleration of the trend in recent years.

The thing I wish was included in GSG was "typical actual cost" rather than headline termly fees (which have wildly varying things included/excluded).

Fair enough, BoffinMum, though we do normally mention it if there are substantial additional costs - particularly for things like special needs support or compulsory trips which most schools now don't charge additional fees for. Having done this for 12 years now I find that good schools are much better about extras than they used to be - upfront and explicit. When my own son when to prep school 20 years ago, it was very different. I recall his having to have 9 different types of footwear, for a start and that was practically half a term's fees at the time!

All that has been said about a school's finances is absolutely right and we have seen several schools close with devastating effects on pupils, staff and parents. You can, however, sometimes see the warning signs coming. There is a helpful article on our website on 'school obituaries'

www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/help-and-advice/choosing-a-school/school-admissions/75/school-obituaries .