The Good Schools Guide - how is it decided what goes in and what stays out?

[Auroborea]

Theoretically, it should be simple - good schools are included and reviewed and less good schools stay out. But obviously it's a complex judgement which schools count as 'good' and which don't. I was wondering whether there is anybody on MN who has some knowledge about how the Good Schools Guide makes it inclusion/exclusion decisions? I am wondering about this in regards to the junior (primary/prep) stage in particular, as that's where my kids are getting to at the moment. In our area, it seems, there are lots of great schools, both state and private, but only some of them are reviewed in the Guide. There isn't always the obvious difference between those that are and those that aren't in terms of results and reputation. Is there something we are missing about the schools that aren't, or is this more about the politics of inclusion/exclusion?

I think everyone has hit the nail on the head with identifying the problems of really knowing what is going on in a school, any school, unless you actually work there.

I have seen many, many schools in the course of a 20 year career in education. Some schools that people turn their noses up at locally do amazing things with the kids in their care. Other schools that are very popular can be exceedingly complacent and resistant to change, with certain children being elbowed out if they do not correspond exactly to the school's notion of an ideal pupil. Some schools that cost a lot of money, and look very established and respectable, have chaotic staffing, dubious morals and dodgy record keeping behind the scenes. Pupils are effectively bought and sold on client lists sometimes, like any other commodity, and independent schools can close down in the blink of an eye completely unexpectedly. Other schools that have scruffy buildings and tiny, urban playgrounds are much more stable environments for children to learn in.

The reality is that there are no guarantees in education.

You just have to make your best guess about what might work for your child, and cross your fingers. Be prepared to move them if they are underachieving or don't take to the school once they are there. And don't rely on the school for everything!

I would add that once we shelled out 2 years of boarding fees at a top ranking academic school for DD for Y7 and Y8, but pulled her out of the school after that time in complete disgust.

The standards were abysmal, the staff barely knew her name, sixth formers effectively looked after the juniors after hours and she was supposed to sleep in a cell like thing with three other girls. It was like ruddy Jane Eyre with radiators.

We had sent her there because various other family members had gone there and done well in the past, and we had a long association with the school. Big mistake. We were interested to note that the head was sacked shortly after she left, and it was all in the papers. But we had wasted a lot of money. The local comprehensive would have done better by her IMO.

So even educationalists can make mistakes!

I think just get all the information you can- from a variety of sources - and then go with your gut. I agree with whoever said you should be willing to change your mind and schools if one isn't working out.

One thing to consider financially is tutoring in Year 6 or earlier. My son's independent school had the best year ever of getting children into desirable secondary schools last year but almost every child had tutoring for the exams outside school (more than previous years).

I agree with you boffinmum but removing children is traumatic especially near to exams and the pasture is not always greener on the other side.
In the ideal world the school would be a bit more honest. For example those with a huge number getting A's are not achieving it without someone pushing hard either parents or teachers, it's the same with sports results pupils long listed for next years GB team have not done it practising once a week. It may seem obvious to most but I'm always surprised when parents complain that St Elsewhere is such an academic hot house; 60% Oxbridge entry and 69% getting A's what the hell do they expect.
Perhaps we as parents need to use a bit more common sense.

The tutoring warning doesn't only apply to Year 6. Just as Junior/Prep schools' entrance exam results can look artificially good due to tutoring - i.e. it's not only down to the school or teachers, but is because of parents shelling out (again!) - so Senior schools' apparently good GCSE and A Level results can also be the result of tutoring.

Why are we paying twice? We got a tutor for Latin when my DS was at prep as the Latin teacher knew only a little more Latin than I did the school knew we were doing it and even admitted it was necessary because there was a problem but still carried on billing us! This was one of my complaints on the ISI parents questionnaire but strangely this was never mentioned I the report. All apparently in the Classics is well.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude - yes we download the accounts form the Charity Commission website too. A school on its uppers financially will not be around long.

We had two very good experiences with independent schools and one appalling one. Looking back we should have taken MUCH MORE notice of the very minor criticicms in the ISI report. These minor criticisms turned out to be huge major issues that had been downplayed.

Happygardening, actually I am always surprised how quickly the majority of children resettle into new schools. Many of them have friends within a week and settle down very well. I think people are too nervous about doing this sometimes, and should shop around a bit more perhaps.

I agree but in the year children sit exams its often feels like the wrong thing to do and there's so many exams now; there feels like there are some every year.

No, I wouldn't do it in Year 6, Year 11 or Year 13. Otherwise it's worth consideration.

Another thing to remember about the Independent Schools Inspectorate is that indep schools don't have to have qualified teachers, so when they talk about "well qualified", they don't mean formal teaching qualifications or even a degree. My youngest's non selective primary had an excellent ISI report across the board but has many unqualified teachers and two classes with a teacher who is not only unqualified but has no university education or even childcare qualifications (no overriding industry experience either).

It's been my experience that primary age children move schools without too much of a problem (I have no clue about secondary school!). I wish that I had moved my son after Year 2, even though he's had a couple of absolutely fantastic form teachers in the subsequent years (they have different subject teachers) -- they just weren't enough to make up for a general lack overall. The early years at his school are amazing though and I am thrilled that he was there for those!

Or in both my DS's cases one in independent the other state yr 8 was not possible (CE) or year 10 as both are/will do GCSE/IGCSE early. We running out of years not that I have any desire to move mine who are both happy but plenty of others must be in a similar situation.
I think most parents are also reluctant to leave because they're always hoping things will get better, the head is usually trying to convince you it going to be OK and in the case of independent schools you have to give a terms notice. Its very hard to admit we've made a mistake and completely misjudged the situation. Finally you have to find somewhere else not easy if you read many of the posting on MM.

Remember you can give rolling notice to an independent school, which is basically informing them you don't think they are delivering what is expected, and you will remove your child if they don't improve. It's not all or nothing, with the loss of a term's fees if you come to the end of your tether and pull them out quickly.

I think I can help as far as The Good Schools Guide is concerned. I've been writing for them - ie visiting schools and reviewing them - for around 12 years. The Guide is in every respect driven by parents. The schools we choose to include - and no-one pretends they are a fair distribution or a balanced selection - depend on what parents a) ask us about and b) tell us. So - for example, we get far far more enquiries about schools in London and in specific parts of London than schools anyhere else so it makes every kind of sense to cover more of these than schools elsewhere. Also, although we take note of ISI reports and league tables we know they only tell part of the story and some schools do a great job but are not league table toppers or box tickers. there has to be a spread of schools,. Not everyone can get into - or wants to - St Paul's or North London Collegiate.

At the same time, of course we can't cover all good schools. In some areas, no school that wasn't good would survive eg Hampstead but some are better than others and our judgements are avowedly partial, opinionated and subjective - and based on what parents tell us. It is like a coffee table chat to some extent - you are right - but then so is a school visit. I have been advising parents on schools for years and know from long experience that one parent's paradise school is another one's hell hole. Some parents adore a school and feel at home there, others hate it.

Schools do lobby to get into The Guide and sometimes we get a clearly orchestrated campaign but this does not influence us more than alerting our local writer - and we have them all over the country - to put her ear to the ground and get reports. If they are encouraging then we might visit.

The Guide has always included state schools and there are far more going in each year. The bottom line is that we rely on parents - people like you and me - to tell us when we are missing out on a great school but also when a school we include is starting to fray at the edges.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

I accept what you say Blustocking but why don't you publish any negative comments? The report was unrecognisable about my sons prep and I was in a sizeable minority who were very unhappy, no one has ever asked me or the ither unhappy parents what our concerns are. I've already said the ISI reports are also complete lies inaccurate so how can you use those to guide you?

Wow, this thread has really developed whilst I've been working! So many good thoughts... Yes, this is really an epistemological question, how do we know what a school is like without actually a direct experience of it (by which point the wrong decision might have caused some damage)? BoffinMum, perhaps we need a Teachers' Guide to Good Schools (you've heard it here first!), where teachers can anonymously review their schools, warts et al, and add the scores up to Amazon-style cumulative ratings? Happygardening, being specific is one of the real challenges, especially looking for entry at the junior level, where the biggest unknown is perhaps your DC (and also you just don't have a clue, no matter how much you research!). Bluestockings, this is so insightful, thank you - I was hoping that someone from GSG might contribute! I guess my concern is with the seeming discrepancy between some of the GSG reviews and the parent grapevine locally, so I'd also be very interested to read your response to the question about negative comments.

I think we need a web site where parents can write their opinions (in confidence of course) and prospective parents can ask any specific questions they like. There will be differing opinions but thats only to be expected. We could call it "So what's it really like" what the prospectus doesn't tell you.com!

We don't use the ISI reports to guide us, happygardening. They have been known to get things wildly wrong. And we do publish negative comments - take a look at our reviews - you'll find plenty. However, we always have to stay on the side of the law, of course. And schools are pretty litigious these days. We hope parents read between the lines in our reviews too. I have been known, for example, to avoid any suggestion that a head is warm and approachable by stressing his/her expertise with data and committees. Many of our writers are teachers but obviously they can't write about their own schools - though we do use a lot of 'moles' I can assure you! The Good Schools Guide website wwww.goodschoolsguide.co.uk does have a facility for all kinds of parental comment and so long as it's not libellous or ad hominem we will publish them. And - well - within limits - we do try to make our reviews a 'what's really like experience'. The fact is that The Good Schools Guide is for good schools - obviously - and they have to be good to stay alive. Plenty of less successful schools go to the wall. But - it is really helpful for us to know when we get it wrong. So if we enthuse about a school you know well and it's going down the tubes - please tell us!

Even reading "between the lines" I don't recognise my DS's old prep school and Bluestocking to quote from your previous posting; "we take note of ISI reports."
Moles who? I would be an excellent mole can I become one?
I think your problem is that you don't want to be libellous and thus can't publish any negative comments so you are not able to give a true picture.
Finally am I correct in thinking that you have to pay a monthly subscription to log onto your website and post comments and let you know that you've got it wrong?

You absolutely can become a mole, happygardening. Send us an email or give us a call. We do promise absolute confidentiality, of course. We would not alter a review on the basis of just one person's comment - we do frequently get comments from people with a grudge and when we investigate - as we do - there is often a back story. But we follow up all complaints about schools - again by using our local writers.

You can log onto our website and get lots of info without subscribing but you do need to subscribe to post comments. But it's really not expensive! If yuo take out an annual sub it works out at just over £3 a month - though a one month sub is £9.99. But - I don't want to come over all salesman - you do get one hell of a lot for your money. And - just to be clear - I did say 'we take note of ISI reports' but I also said 'we don't use them to guide us' and that is exactly true.

Bluestockings - the "reading between the lines" is really interesting! Looking at my youngest son's school's entry which just made the Sunday Times Top 100 prep schools list (this is listed in the description), there's a note which says "* Only prep schools that take key stage assessments were eligible for inclusion in the list."

I don't know if you guys added it or they did (I'm guessing you because I haven't heard it before but parents were told about making the list..) but it made me laugh. Of course! The year 2 and year 6 kids do spend loads of time revising for SATS and they're very important at the school, so if that's your thing...

Irt certainly isn't our thing, JJ!

That little phrase changed my whole view of the list! Good to know SATS aren't your thing either.

Bluestockings, you are our mole in the GSG ! Do you know whether all the entries are updated every year, and are any reviews partially recycled? (I'm only on my first year of subscription.) I saw the comments facility online, but all of our local schools have so far attracted... Arm... Zero comments. So frustrating! I think if you allowed non-subscribing members to post (and put in the not your opinions/responsibility disclaimer), it could actually become a feature that is used. By the way, do you know when the 2012 guide will be published (I was hoping for a new version before I have to make the final school decision, but I'm not sure whether this would happen)?

I can tell you lots of the reviews stay there for several years. The entry for my DCs senior school was unchanged for a while (I haven't looked in the last couple of years, but it was the same for 4 years).
As to the teacher's review of schools, there is something similar for international schools, International review however similar comments if made somewhere like the TES have to be removed as schools do sue. I think the international review gets away with it because it is subscription only, and supposedly a closed community.