Are your summer born children under achievers or high flyers?

[whoknowswho]

An article in the telegraph suggests August born children struggle at school by the age of seven and are more likely to take vocational quals than go to a top uni . My very late august born DD is thriving at school (Y2) top of the class and loving it but she's still very young so this could all change I guess. What are your summer born children like?www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8860219/Summer-born-children-less-likely-to-attend-top-universities.html#

Of course we could see it as being advantageous that summer born children are mixing with older kids and therefore learning from them but as our species is so hung up on competetion and being better than all the other kids, especially when it comes to sport then I guess we will never see it in that way. Sadly.

I wonder whether this is such an issue in other countries where children start school later, e.g. where there are all at least 6 years old as opposed to 4?

Am I the only one to think the thread title on this is worthy of the Daily Mail?

MNHQ: you should know better!

My boys are young in their year and have been very exhausted starting school. Much more than normal level exhaustion - quite extreem really. Work wise they are top table and can also hold their own socially.

Not read the telegraph article. I know there has been research to show that kids who are younger in the academic year are less likely to to sit A levels though.

Well my children exactly fit the findings. DS July born, behind in most things, DD November born, ahead in almost everything.

To be honest I am not happy with the comments here such as:

"As a parent you can counter what goes on in the education system with what you do at home, and your belief in your child."

and

"In my opinion, how well your child gets on at school is far more likely to be driven by the influences and support they get from home, rather than when their birthday happens to be."

Comments like these are negating the influences that are made outside the home, and that there are differences in character that will affect how well children will do. My children have had huge support at home, but the education system is failing my son despite all my effort. Part of this has to do with maturity and how he is treated by the teachers.

Statistics do suggest that lower educated parents vs higher educated parents generally affect the likelihood of a child reaching higher education. But when you have children from the same parents/home, some will do better than others for various reasons, and the way that confidence is built within the education system in the early years can and does, affect childrens subsequent educational journey DESPITE parents support at home.

In Ireland the Drumcondra tests given annually to primary school children, have both class-based and age-based data attached. This allows for the age of the child and birthdate to be taken in as part of the assessment. All children start in September of the academic year, but the age at which a child starts is more flexible.

This flexible entrance year, unfortunately means that you can have a gap of about 2 years in the range of youngest to oldest in a class. Parents often send their children to school as soon as possible to save on child-care costs. The biggest affect is on when the children take the leaving cert (A-Level) exams, where many are ill-equiped to deal with the emotional stress of the exams due to immaturity. Many parents deal with this by making their child repeat a primary school year before moving to secondary school, this has its own emotional price.

OP - if your child is thriving now in school, there is a fairly good chance that this will continue, so I think you can safely put your dd in the 'outside the norm' category, like so many folk have described here, and trust that she will continue to do so well.

I'm an August baby.

I was OK at school, near the top of the class.

But I did and still do suffer with low self esteem and low expectations.

Summer born children are at a disadvantage, they are almost a year younger than some of their classmates.

I remember a big row when I was in the athletics team. I ran in the under 14s, against people in the year below me as it worked on age not school year. Well, as I kept winning it was deemed unfair and in school v school events I had to run in the under 15s and in club based events the under 14s.

my end of august baby boy is now at tippity top university - i believe it made him a fighter - instilled drive - my autumn borns much more lazy!

Hi Lingle - it is good to see your post. I have been quite upset by some of the selfishness and lack of empathy shown on this thread. If your child doesn't need flexibility then fine don't take it but for those of us whose children do need it there is no choice. My DS is in the position you describe. The stress on the family has been indescribable - would an extra year in a preschool or nursery have helped. YES I think it would.

(And by the way both myself and ex are degree educated, good unis, in maths and are both chartered accountants. Our DS could not come from a more academically supportive home. It's made no difference)

I understand, veryconfused, my DD (Aug Y1) came home with a "special letter" yesterday and so did DS (Oct Y3 ). One for extra support sessions and one for extension sessions. No prizes for guessing which is which.

It is upsetting when people suggest its something that you as a parent are falling short on. I have given both mine exactly the same opportunities, but they are poles apart because:

• they are completely different children
• they are at different ends of the age spectrum in their year

See, threads like this confuse me as I know in a year or so DH and I are going to have to make a decision about DS who is a mid Jan birthday (Scotland). He'd therefore be due to start P1 when he is 4.8. To me this is fine and as he is a second child, confident, speaking well etc I can't see any problem with starting him then based just on him..... BUT so many people now defer Jan/Feb birthdays (and in our town even push the council to defer Dec birthdays) that chances are he will be the youngest and there might be children more than a year older than him in his class. So are we then disadvantaging him by not deferring, purely because everyone else does .... I know this is going to lead to much soul searching. I wonder do the differences in Scotland (where the very earliest they could start would be 4.6) mean that it's less of an issue than in England where as I understand some could literally just have turned 4. Also, at the end of the day no matter when the cut-off is, someone has to be the youngest! Just a pity it's probably going to be my DS :(

gabid

I'm abroad, where children start school at 6 (ish) (and as ever on threads where "abroad"and "starting school at 6" is mentioned I feel I must underline the fact that yes, they start at 6, but the work they do is what children in the UK would be doing after 2 or 3 yrs in school. Dd (now in Yr 3 and aged 8) has been writing essays on poetry analysis, studying long division in maths etc since last year. They also have between 2 and 3 hrs homework a day. ) As far as I can see, the work and expectations of a 7 yr old is the same wherever you are, it's just that they happen to be in different years in different countries.

That said.....dd is in a class of 24 and is the second youngest although she isn't summer born. She is October born, and was a month short of 6 when she started. Here (Italy) parents can choose to send their children to elementary school as early as 5- 5.5 or as late as almost 7. Dd has two girls in her class who will turn 9 in January, making them a whole year older than the very youngest in the class who will turn 8 in January.

To my mind this creates 2 problems. The oldest 2 girls are soooo much older, in terms of maturity and interests, as well as physically, than the youngest ones. We call one of them Mother Hen because she effectively takes care of the younger ones. I often see the older ones as being bored in the company of the younger ones, and the younger ones seem somehow babyish when compared to the older ones.

There are 4 children in dd's class who go to what is known here as "recupero" (ie catching up because they are not keeping up with the others in the class.) None of the 4 are summer born, 2 have birthdays in June, 1 in March, the other one I'm not sure.

I also understand. Both my DH and I are Russell Group Uni graduates, both professionals with two summer-born children. When you get asked about having special help for your kids it is hard but accept everything you get giving and you will reap the rewards while your child clicks into gear. Both of mine had special help in the early years and DD still does Year 3 for Maths. Homework used to be a trial and getting them to read very difficult.

The hardest thing for me was when one parent of a September-born stood in the playground crowing about her DD's all 3s in SATs when my little summer-born scraped his 2s but was almost 12 months younger which in my book was good. I know this is a terrible attitude but when he got all 5s in his Year 6 and ended up in the same top teaching group as the other girl in secondary whose mother was surprised that he made it, I could not help a smug smile to myself. They are now on a level playing field and vying for top-spot in the class. Oh it was good!

Bucharest - I see, that there still are differences within one class in Italy, however, it seems more flexible and not so regimented as here.

As a parent I felt quit helpless sending an immature 4 year old who isn't interested in holding a pencil to school. And as it seems the problem doesn't seem to even out in a year or two. My DS is average academically but suffers low self-esteem - an 'I probably can't' attitude.

I went to school in Germany and was almost 7 when I started. I don't remember pressure in primary school. There was more homework, but we finished school between 12 and 1pm. In secondary school there was more pressure and I even had to repeat a year together with about 10 others, but still we quickly settled into the new class and age didn't seem to matter at all.

losingtrust - when your young one's got support, when it was hard to get them to read, when you probably did your best to support them, how did you keep their confidence up when they are in a class where the majority reads better, are quicker at things? Or did they not care/notice?

Hi veryconfusedatthemoment

try not to get upset - they are thinking about their own kids, it only sounds as though they are judging us, it's not intentional.

If your little one has comparable difficulties to my son, then I'm not surprised it has been stressful.

Here's a letter from a headteacher within Bradford LEA written to resist Bradford's proposals to drop its enlightened system. I found it very moving at a time when my son was suffering so I copied it out and I hope you will find it helpful too because, even though it is sad, it backs up your view. I'm sorry to say that it was not successful - Bradford did end the flexibility policy, though I managed to pester them into keeping a special needs exception.

" I am writing to raise an objection in the strongest possible terms, to the proposals to discourage, and indeed prevent deferred entry for summer born children from 2010.
In this climate of "Every Child Matters" and "Personalising Learning", it seems that these agendas and principles do not matter if the needs of a very small number of very young and vulnerable children might cause a little increase in administration. The only impact of deferring entry is the addition of a note on the pupil census to explain why there appear to be additional children in infant class.
In my many years as a teacher and a head, I have always tried to make decisions in the best interests of individual children. Summer born children, particularly those with mid to late August birthdays, are at a distinct disadvantage in our educational system, particularly as children in this country start formal school far too early at the age of 4+ in any case. As a reception class teacher and for many years as a Head Teacher, I have encouraged parents to make their own decision based upon their superior knowledge of their children, and I have always undertaken to support them fully in that decision.
Young children who are forced into formal education too soon suffer from lack of confidence and self-esteem, and this impacts on their personal well-being as well as progress and attainment. For many children, the impact stays with them until GCSE and later life. Conversely, those who defer entry come to school confident and mature. They do well both personally and academically. Surely this should be the priority!
We are not talking about huge numbers of children. I currently have 2 children in my 2-form entry school whose entry was deferred by agreement to meet their needs. A further child will enter in September 2008. All the children concerned remain in good quality nursery settings, accessing appropriate provision and environment until the term after they are 5, which is, after all, their legal entitlement. They remain with their admission cohort throughout the school and leave with them in Y6.
........
The proposals outlined clearly remove the option of deferred entry from parents, as you quite rightly point out that Year 1 classes will be full. To suggest or require that children should be placed directly into Y1 and miss the last year of the foundation stage is outrageous. Anyone with any understanding of the needs of young children should know this.
I note that a study reported nationally this morning has highlighted the issue of admission age in England, and found that English children do not benefit from starting school so young. Having recently visited schools in Europe and experienced the success and confidence of hcildren who start school at 6 or 7 years old, folowing universal Kindergarten provision, I would go further and say that our current system disadvantages even 5 year old children. To impose formal schooling on children who have just had their 4th birthday is cruel and inappropriate.
I would like to have sight of the rationale that led to this proposal. As it is, I cannot identify one advantage of this proposal to children. If every child really does matter to Bradford, then this proposal should be rejected."

This was one of the threads where I discussed the issue with others.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/823663-Following-Ed-Balls-webchat-thread-for-parents-of-summer-born/AllOnOnePage#16941186

We then did manage to get Sir Jim Rose (the man who managed to completely halt the drive towards flexibility) on to mumsnet for a webchat. After being pestered by us, and trying to ignore my questions, he formally admitted that he had never intended there to be no exceptions to the rules.

This thread has caused a massive row betwen me and DP this morning :(

I told him I am reading about this and I wonder what would be the worst that could happen if we decided to keep DS in pre-school one more year.

He is adamant that would be a mistake, kept telling me he is July born and never had any issues with going to school at 4y2m and DS will be fine.

Evenually the discussion degenerated into him shouting (which he never does) and me crying (which I very rarely do)

The fucking insensitive bastard

I remember you and I used to be quite heated on this topic but we both seem to feel now that it all depends on the child. It's nice to remind people that it can be an advantage for some.

by the way, I think this is a good thread, as the sensible points about statistical reasoning have all been made early on.

I agree it's a good thread, sorry I didn't mean to sound like it's not.

Maybe it's me who's not "good" - I worry to much. :(

My DS is August born. End of August. One more week and he would have been in the school year below. He is currently in Year 1.

He is a bright boy. He has a great vocabulary. He is so interested in the world.

But he is so in the wrong year.

He struggles with reading and writing and is essentially at reception level.

He is doing brilliantly for him. For someone who has just turned 5. But his confidence is low and he thinks that others are doing better than him.

If he was in reception now I believe he would go through school believing himself to be clever and achieving well.

As it is I worry that he is going to go through school believing he is not as good as others and struggles.

It is frustrating and worrying and my heart breaks for him sometimes.

But I tell him all the time that he is doing brilliantly, that the fact that he tries so hard means a lot and that everybody learns to read and write in the end, but not everyone asks questions like he does or creates things as he does.

I wish there were more flexibility. I wish for the sake of 7 days he could be in the year below. It seems to arbitrary and unfair.

Hi PrinceRogersNelson
My DD has mild dyslexia and struggled with reading, writing, and spelling, as well as getting things finished in the time available, especially in years 1, 2, 3 & 4 at primary.
But I kept on believing in her and encouraging her and not worrying too much about the school targets ( which seemed to me to be more about some idea of where the average child should be )
Then in years 5 & 6 her reading took off ( found some authors she loved ! )
Everyone started appreciating her beautiful, creative poems and stories.
She was able to use her critical skills more in literacy.
And all of a sudden she was top of the class !
Now it's mainly organisation, tidiness, and spelling that we're still working on But she's continuing to do really well in year 8 at her secondary school.
As I like to see she just had a different learning, reading and literacy trajectory than the average.
Or, to put it another way - we're all different !
Good luck to you with your son. I think it's often harder on the boys.
But keep believing in him and encouraging him.
I really think that's the most important thing.

hi Lingle, thank you for posting that beautiful letter. Actually it made me cry (again) as I have just spent 45 mins with DS looking at 5 spellings. We haven't even yet written the 5 sentences to go with the 5 spellings :(

But wow what a head - he clearly knew that a very few number of children would be impacted so actually in the scheme of things that flexibility would not create a big problem and even more he was prepared to publicly (sp?) state his views.

I spent a frustrating time today speaking to one of the authors of the IFS report which triggered this thread. I rather cheekily phoned to ask what they were doing for next steps. We know the issues, have done for 20 years so why is no-one in this country DOING something. Apparently they do research they are interested in but don't lobby or get involved in change. We then had to agree to disagree on their finding that summer borns would do better starting school in Sept. Apparently "emotional" issues didn't come into their evidence. I analysed as best I could the "evidence" quoted by Sir Jim Rose and found many inconsistencies - the worst of which was his jumping from the evidence stating that children do well with good preschool/nursery education to suddenly that becoming all children should start school age just 4. I fear the IFS evidence may have similar holes.

So do you think we should start another thread for those who do want change and plan a campaign? Any supporters? I blunder in believing that justice, equality and logic will change peoples minds. Fool that I am. So definitely looking for knowledgable bright Mumsnetters who know really how the system works and what levers have to be pulled for change.

MsBrian - sorry to hear it triggered a row. Hope it wasn't because your DP misunderstood and thought the article said that all summer birthday people are underachievers.....

I went through the same dilemma, and in the end I settled for a school that has a combined preschool (nursery) and reception class because of their small numbers. I say settled but I actually chose it actively, and after 2 months I can say it was the right decision because my DS is really flourishing and they don't seem to have problems fitting in all the things that bigger classes do. Everything for Reception is covered in their syllabus. We also saw another school that I thought would be great for a summer born child - small, one form entry, and the sort of place which is more like a family than an institution - the head knows every child's name and the teachers were involved and attentive in every class I observed. When I talked about my concerns regarding being immature or "behind" compared to the Sept/Oct children, the head said, that's ok, that's because he's little. We visited another school which was large, had "outstanding" for their Ofsted report, and seemed very ambitious in every way, and they were of the feeling that the child should be sent for more hours at nursery to catch up or keep up, and didn't seem as supportive.

I think if you have a look around various different primary schools, you could probably come up with a good one that fits your child like I did. What fits one child may not fit another. What many contemporaries who had to keep their child for a further year in preschool (I presume this is private? As most state nurseries won't do it) is that about halfway through the year - when they reach 4+ or 5, the child gets bored and understimulated. That's the down side of staying in preschool one year more. So see if you can find a school that is supportive - often that is a small school, but sometimes it's a medium sized one.