Are your summer born children under achievers or high flyers?

[whoknowswho]

An article in the telegraph suggests August born children struggle at school by the age of seven and are more likely to take vocational quals than go to a top uni . My very late august born DD is thriving at school (Y2) top of the class and loving it but she's still very young so this could all change I guess. What are your summer born children like?www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8860219/Summer-born-children-less-likely-to-attend-top-universities.html#

I shall repeat here what I added on page 1 on this OP:

But a tiny caveat I might slip quietly in: that being almost a year younger than the older DCs in a class can come home to roost in later secondary.

I was Miss Clever Clogs to the extent I was sitting behind the desk of a grammar school aged 10yrs 8 months. My best friend from primary was also there, aged 10.11mo. She bombed badly at 15 after a life, up til then, of glittering prizes. I didn't crash'n'burn to quite that extent but I so recognise that I would have done considerably better at school if I'd had the advantage of that year's maturity. Of course, in your case, we're not talking more than 12 months - your DC is at least 'in year', but even so be aware that the older DCs naturally 'grow up' sooner, on average, than the younger ones. Your DC might be 'lucky' and also mature amongst the fastest, but if they don't, sadly, 'clever' can be a bit eclipsed by 'confused'.

So it's important not be be complacent, or even crow about the August baby who's now top of the school at 10 or even 5....

I'm a June baby and was put up a year at primary school, because I could read when I arrived - graduated from a Scottish university - ie 4 year course - at age 21 with a 2:1.

My dd has an Oct bday and is top of her class in everything, no problem.

My ds has just started school and is a May baby - a boy, 2nd child, completely different kettle of fish! I'd estimate he's lower middle of class. Must try not to obsess about it, because in the UK we start school very early.

From this thread, there seems to be a high academic = low social skills thing going on - how odd!

Wow - discussion of the day - well I never!
My DD is doing very well at school (so says the teacher) but in my opinion not as well as her autumn born brother - time will tell. Each child is different in the way they adapt to school regardless of birthdate. I remember years ago, some friends telling me they were planning an autumn baby - i really thought they'd lost the plot - perhaps not!

Some posters fail to realise that just because their Summer born dc has achieved academically at school, does not take away from the fact that Summer born children (particularly boys) ARE at a disadvantage.
I have two Autumn born dcs who are doing well at school. However , my Summer born ds(6) struggled in reception and year 1. I was concerned about his lack of confidence and therefore spent most of the Summer tutoring him in order to bring him up to the level of his classmates. He is now in year 2 and is doing very well. I don't think he would be able to read, write etc ,if i hadn't invested
time and energy in supporting him at home.I did not have to do this with my Autumn born dcs.

into

In answer to OP's question:

As a teacher in KS1, I have always found that MOST summer borns are usually 'lagging behind' the autumn borns. Not all of them, there are some who are 'exception to the rule' like most things. But as time goes on, that usually changes.

By KS2 (which I have taught in), most summer borns catch up, not all, but most. In which case, you can probably ascertain that those who haven't are probably 'true SEN'.

Every year when I get a 'fresh batch' of Y1s, those on the SEN register are all May, June, July and August born. This year there has been one exception. One child is Feb born and another is March (but had no reception teaching). I tend to 'take them off' the register as I don't believe they are 'true SEN'. They are just delayed due to age -not due to lack of ability.

Take a baby born in September 2011 and another who will be born August 2012 (bless, not yet conceived!). When the August one is born, the September child will be almost one. A big difference in development. It will probably be no different come September 2016 when BOTH will be starting school - one turning five while the other may have only turned four days before.

To cut a long explanation short, not all summer born children will be 'disadvantaged'. Most children MAY find it tougher, but there are exceptions to the rule.

Thanks for that post, mum2be79 - reassuring

I was a late August child. It never did me any harm at school and I have achieved well academically and in work life.

I am not a summer baby and I don't have a summer baby but feel quite strongly that just 4yo is too young to start school and that the u.k should have the same policy as Scotland.

My dd1 is in yr6 and has end of July birthday. She was a very late reader but at Parents Evening just before half term we were told she is above average for her SATs levels.

I am curious, under that logic mum2be, would a child who is summer born and doing well end up doing even better as their age became less of an issue in the latter years of primary, compared to average? It makes sense if those who are behind due to age catch up to average that those ahead who are summer born would become more so?

DD2 is end of August born - should have been September so ended up in the year above what we were expecting.

When she started school she found it tough compared to her January born sister. She kept telling me that the children were cleverer than her. I kept on and on repeating, "they're not cleverer, they're just older." She did less well in her SATs than big sis - but then she was so much younger when she took them.

Fast forward 8 years and academically she has more than caught up. She's Year 8 and at GCSE level in most subjects. But I still think she's in the wrong year group. She's tiny and very young for her age. The vast majority of her friends are in the year below. She's still very much a little girl in both looks and behaviour, whereas I'm constantly taken aback by how grown up most of her peers look.

In short, I don't think it's the end of the world, and a lot depends on the personality of the child. But I think it can be an extra hurdle for them to overcome.

Looking further ahead, you seem to be able to get funding for 3 years of 6th form nowadays i.e. until 19. At the moment it's possible DD2 will take a gap year of some sort and go into 6th form college a year later. She would still only be 18 when she left. I think she would then at last be in the right year for her.

I do wish you had the choice at primary and secondary level, particularly for a child like DD2 who was born early - putting her into a different year group.

My dd is a late June baby and I think it does impact, especially in those really early years. So she was 4 for most of reception, 5 for most of Y1 and 6 for most of Y2. For some children they are 5, 6, and 7 for those years!

So her fine motor skills needed a bit more time, she was quite 'young' emotionally (literally made her start leaving her comfort object at home 2 weeks before she started school!) etc. She started to get reading in Y2 when she had turned 6.

My second dd is well into reading and writing now but she is in Y1 and nearly 6 so in some respects they are similar in picking up the skills but DD2 will be seen as brighter on some levels as she is a Y1 at this stage of reading and not a Y2.

However, supportive schools that identify children's needs and give lots of support can make a huge difference (as can aptitude and personality, I accept) and dd1 is doing well now (in Y4) and has always been really happy at school. She still gets support for maths and I notice that many of those who do are the summer babies, although she is still attaining the level she needs to in that subject.

So I don't think we should be quick to go against this research and it is good grounds to ask schools to look at the support they give to summer babies to ensure they are not left behind (or the youngest children in the year in the culture of the country).

Good point about the 6th form and gap year music! Never thought of that!

I haven't read many of the posts but this is the subject that I am most passionate about. I HAVE read much of the research (as part of my parental submission to the Sir Jim ( political bastard ) Rose review on Primary Curriculum and review of admissions for summer-borns) and yes it is metres of evidence. The evidence collected in this and many other countries over the last 20 years irrefutably finds that summer born children particularly boys are disadvantaged ON AVERAGE and it is a lifetime disadvantage. ALL I want for my DS is and was the right in England to be able to start him a year later in the state system if that is best for him (or hold back a year). He is now in Yr 2 and is still struggling with academic studies but also with activities outside school which are state school age driven. His confidence is shot to bits at age 6 .

What can you do to help? LOBBY, LOBBY, LOBBY - this must change. It impacts all of our children - did you know that a higher % of summer born children are diagnosed as SN? If they were in the right year for their ability (emotional and otherwise) I believe that many of these diagnoses would not be so necessary freeing up resource for children who desparately need assistance. Also when YOU compain about those "naughty" (labels again) children in class disrupting YOUR childrens lessons - ever thought about why that might be? They are under pressure from such a ridiculously early age.

The Sir Jim Rose review found that children benefit from good pre-school/nursery foundation. This was changed in the final recommendation to be that children should all start SCHOOL as 1 intake only ie for summer-borns aged just 4 years. Thankfully this has been weakened slightly but much more flexibility is necessary.

There is so much to say on this topic. Just because you or your child are doing OK please don't dismiss this for others. It will take all of us to change the system for the good of all our children.

My September born DS1 has struggled academically due to SN. Am now worrying that my August born DD may struggle too, thanks to the Telegraph! Must keep reminding myself that my mum was born in August & had fantastic O-Level & A-Level results .

I was born end of July myself - and severely underachieved at school - but (I think) that was more down to attitude than ability .

Mine was born in July, premature, should've popped out in August...

Now at a top university - what does that tell you..

Am I the only person convinced from this thread that Oxford and Cambridge must be populated by August born children of MNers?!

Now if my MIL was a Mumsnetter, this might be true..at least, my BIL who is a July birthday was the star child in a bright family. He's a highly talented individual.

Of course, if he'd been born in November, he would probably be ruling the world by now [icon for g*d help us, anyone?]

My August born is in year 9 at grammar school. He's lazy, but naturally bright and was apparently G&T in (I think) year 5.

Every year this articles like this come out once - not sure whether it is to scare parents or because they run out of real news or real research to report. I think it goes without saying that at Reception, the July and August borns are going to seem a lot younger than their Sept and Oct born classmates - nearly 25% younger! But as they grow older that disadvantage will cease to be there as the percentages narrow.The BBC had something similar too :
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15490760
I have summer born child too (in infant school), and I do notice that in many respects he has more in common with children in the year below whose birthdays are in Sept/Oct than those in his year with autumn/winter birthdays, yet he gets on equally well with both. However, academically (if you can use the term academically at infant school age!) he certainly isn't behind - that could be more to do with the fact that I enjoy doing word and number puzzles with him rather than pretending to play football or climbing, which I'm no expert at.

I think each parent would know their child best - if socially they are less confident than other children and less likely to ask for help and attention, I would choose a school (whether state or independent) that is small, perhaps not necessarily with an impressive Ofsted rating, but one that is more concerned about each child fitting in and enjoying school rather than a large school focussed on children hitting targets and being able to be scholastically advanced at a young age. Also, the attainment problem is probably less noticeable in younger siblings than first born or only children, as a younger sibling often regards his older brother/s or sister/s as his/her peers and has learnt to make themselves noticed and sometimes even tries to keep up with them in terms of speech and reading.

NB the BBC article points out that while there are quite a lot of sportsmen whose birthdays are at the older end of the year group (Sep birthdays for UK, Jan birthdays for Australia) that there are exceptions like David Beckham (May).....I can also point out Ian Thorpe (Oct, Australian) and Pete Sampras (Aug, US - autumn school year start). Among women, Karrie Webb (Dec, Australian golfer), Steffi Graf (June, German - also autumn school year start).

Of course there are children (and adults) who do very well despite being born at a disadvantage, but that disadvantage is well known and has been widely studied for many years. What I haven't seen and would be interested in is whether it holds true for countries with different cut off dates as there has been some speculation that it may be to do with pregnancy factors. I know I've read that things like depression have some link with birth months (can't find anything now though).

I have a May born son and a very early September born daughter. ds went to school in January with a group of children all with later birthdays and struggled. dd was sad at nursery to see all her friends leave and probably could have started earlier without disadvantage. But she certainly had the advantage when she started as she was so much older and bigger than most of her peers and slotted into the teachers helper role she's taken ever since.

When they were 8 and 9 we moved to Canada where they have a different cut off (normal year rather than the academic year) and so ds went down half a year and dd went up half a year. It's worked very well for both of them, especially ds and particularly as they go to high school a year later. In the UK he'd be second year secondary, he he is top year junior, and I think will be really ready to move next year. dd has held her early advantage (won an academic prize for her year last year) but stands out slightly less. She does miss being the eldest though! Here they also hold children down if they are struggling, somethign in general I'm not keen on, but good for those younger children who really are finding it very hard.

Oh and whilst I agree that younger siblings do often appear more mature / are pushed forward, that then makes it particularly hard if the summer born child is first.

If schools are basing their expectations on when certain children are born then it is another example of the failings of our education system. If anything a bit of competition is good for kids. My dd is June born and just as good as her autumn born counterparts at the releveant skills. She's highly articulate and loves sport too.