"We need elitism in schools" Do you agree with Dave?

[Pantone]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8751220/David-Cameron-we-need-elitism-in-schools.html

What do you think of this?

Yes, I see what you mean, gardening. Interesting points.

"if he thinks its even remotely possible to mimic in the state sector what you can find at the top private schools"

why not though? I disagree with this wholeheartedly.

There is one comprehensive school in my LEA that beats all independents hands down; it has more opportunities, better facilities and a wonderful ethos. It has amazing results. It is a fantastic school. It achieves it despite being a comprehensive. Lots of children go to Oxbridge every year. I don't really see why not more schools could be like that - it can be done. You just have to raise expectations, that's all.

I think it's great that such a fantastic state school exists and there are many others like it. What is this school called and where is it?

Yes, I was going to ask wher eit is and what's it demographic.

Ok Lovetheharp let see this schools websiite I just dont believe that "it has more opportunities, better facilities" than D.C. school Eton. And I suspect that you are just proven the point I was trying to make earlier. That the vast majority of people have no idea what the Elite independent schools offer. A recent piece of research by the Sutton Trust found that four "elite: independent schools sent more children to Oxford and Cambridge than 2000 others combined. And the article discussing this said that the big four; Eton Westminnster, St Pauls Boys/Girls had more pitches/sporting facilities and stages etc. than any other schools in the UK.
St Pauls boys is about to undergo a complete rebuild the cost £77 million, average cost spent on a state school double the size of St Pauls 25 million and 35 million the highest spent, Eton has fairly recently built a rowing lake; Dorney Wood so fantastic are the facilities that the Olympic rowing will be held there.
Wake up Ovetheharp dont be fooled by D.C.'s talk he knows bloody well that it is not possible to recreate this is the state sector.

I tend to believe in elitism. But I think the mistake is that we concentrate on academic elitism. The metric is A*s and how many go to Oxbridge. We don't seem able to get into the mindset of a vocational elite - real kudos for the kid who is en route to being a first-rate plumber or whatever.

So, in the name of equality we ditched most grammar schools instead of improving secondary moderns.

First of all let's say that I don't believe anything that D.C. says, so I agree with you on that one.

However I don't measure an elite education by having a rowing lake or beautiful rolling hills or a state of the art tech suite. Just to prove a point, one of our local schools underwent a major rebuilding programme, it now has state of the art facillities but it is still a sink school.

I went to an elite school in Italy - I went to school with the son of the current president, and princes and princesses as well as sons and daughters of journalists, civil servants, teachers, architects, plumbers and electricians. We were all side by side. It was a state school.

It wasn't elite because it had excellent facilities, in fact the building was falling apart and I remember being taught in a freezing 14th century hall with pieces of frescos dropping on my desk. We didn't have any grounds and didn't have access to any sports.

However the education we received was second to none; academically it has set all of us up for life and the expectations of everyone, no matter what social class, were sky high. I am still in touch with my classmates and I would say everyone with no exception went to be very successful in their chosen field.

What I loved about my school is that there was no snobbery whatsoever as it was all about intellect not about money. We didn't even wear a uniform, we all wore tracksuits and cheap jeans - it was really very special.

Maybe it is because I am from a different culture, but I am not blinded by facillities or fancy IT suites - we managed a fantastic top of the class education without it.

I think you can achieve a state of the art education with very little money. It's all about expectations.

I do think that saying a state school provides a less excellent education because it does not have a range of extraordinary, obscure and expensive facilities for non-curriculum activities is somewhat missing the point. There is a point where a line has to be drawn between 'core' educational provision (in which I would include curriculum PE) and 'extras'.

On the one hand, I have discounted a particular grammar school for DS because it focuses too strongly on 'core academic education' and its PE / design technology / art etc facilities are truly DIRE. On the other hand, I do not consider a local private school 'better' because it has in-house ballet / tap / modern dance lessons or because it plays rugby not football - DD combines her state school education with extra-curricular dance lessons at a superb local dance school, and DS combined his with a junior contract at the local professional football club. One of the great things about state schools is their integration with local communities and the fact that pupils can access extra-curricular activities in the local community rather than having to have them brought to them on a plate on site.

I agree with you but its no coincidence that the top four elite independent schools have the highest Oxbridge entry. They have selected their children very carefully and only the brightest make it in the door but once there they broaden the children's horizons with an enormous range of other activities that not only are enjoyable they are to use an old fashioned phrase character building and ultimately look good on university application forms. My husband went to one of these school and as he will testify there is no limit.
But this is not the point D.C. should not be trying to use vote winning tactics by stating that his wants educate a handful of children in one of of these "elite state school" which can never be as good as the one provided by the independent sector but instead he should be aiming to educate all children in such away that it enables them to fulfil their potential whether is is academic or vocational.

Elite means there are those below you just as social mobility m eans a heap of people on their uppers who are socially going down and down.

Parents want what is best for their children which is only natural and why the species survived.

Our children will be competing tooth and claw for jobs. Graduates at the moment have rarely had it so hard. So most parents want to try to ensure the best for their child and that means better than others. If you chose a better career so you have the funds to pay for a better education people tend to do that.

HG, it may also be that those 4 schools have a wider pool of staff who are highly specialised at writing Oxbridge entrance forms for their pupils, and who use this finely-honed expertise to good effect.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if these staff, rather than doing any teaching at all in a state school, just went in and wrote application forms for those pupils likely to get the grades for Oxbridge, using the children's existing curriculum strengths and out-of-school activities.

I suspect that admission rates from those state schools would go up - not because the education that the children have received has been changed one iota, not because they have access to a boating lake, but because their applications would be written in a subtly different way.

Maybe you should contact the heads of these schools and suggest it. I know St Paul's Boys is doing lots of things to strengthen its links with local community.

If only it were that simple Xenia

Nephew started independent last week.

Can his parents afford it? no. Can his grandparent afford it? yes. Has absolutely zero to do with any career choices made by his parents or anything they have ever done though; is just luck that grandparent had spare cash.

teacherwith good point.

I didn;t even consider Oxbridge (and was therefore mightily pissed off that a colleague with no better grades than I got in)- why not? culture. Sam reason I feel odd even walking past a Mulberry despite being as highly qualified if not more as most of their customers.

Actually Dh is getting mightily annoyed with my 'not for the likes of me' stance (I don't pass it to the children- work hard not to) but it's seemingly impossible to shake.

The top independent schools are offering bursaries. Look at St Paul's boys/Winchester College web site.

But you have to be on a seriously low income to qualify ( or appear to be on a low income). Let's say a family was on £50K a year with two or three children. There's no way on earth they could afford those fees, so certainly someone on £30K couldn't.

Agree with teacherwith2kids - top schools know the ropes as far as Oxbridge is concerned. They have relationships with certain colleges, know how to write personal statements, and can coach their pupils in what to expect at an interview and what impresses the interviewers. I'm not saying that these pupils aren't deserving of their places - I'm sure they are incredibly able - but ceteris parabus they are obviously going to make their state school counterpart look gauche and less clever.

Not oonly that but I know of a family on a very low income (carer family) turned down for a bursary in favour of a family with a significant income who were allowed to write much of it off on mortgages / car loans / debts- I don't know if it's usually the case or a once off but I do know that at least some schools retain the final say-so of who gets the bursary regardless of financial status (definitely not academic status as I know child's exam results, just completed them, all A* / A)

There are lots of posting about bursaries on MM.
You do not have to be on a low income to qualify especially for boarding schools (i'm speaking from personal experience) or for that matter on a high income to qualify but you do have to be prepared to make large sacrifices and some don't want to have to do this. Mortgages of what ever size, debts etc are obviously taken into consideration because the school are looking at your ability to pay. But if you have large amounts of capitol tied up in assets then you may be asked to free it up. As far as I'm aware the decision always rest with the individual school because they are the ones who have the money in the first place. Obviously it doesn't open up private education for all but at least schools like St Paul's boys and Winchester are trying to do something which in both cases was the ethos of their founders.
Many schools raise money for their bursary fund by charging the parents who are paying the full fees more on the basis that if you can afford £29000 a year another couple of thousand is unlikely to break you.
But not all who apply get a bursary because the pot is limited particularly in these difficult economic times so there will always be stories of those on high and low incomes who were turned down.

Well the family I knew already ahd a child at the school but were forced into poverty by the birth of a disabled child so that seemed just so unfair (and ultimately futile as the school no longer exists).

Weren't many forced into providing bursaries to retain charity status? so a bad head (and I am sure many, the vast majority in fact, are not) wouldn't want to use it to improve access but to just balance maintaining the status quo with keeping charity status? there is a risk of that.

And YY to counting housing; but there's a level at which soeone can gree upa ssets to cover costs that someone renting or with a tiny house can't- I'm not sure counting the mortgage on an 8 bed pile is the same in terms of need as the rent on a 2 bed terraced.

Weren't many forced into providing bursaries to retain charity status?

Not exactly. The couple of schools which failed the test (out of about 5 who were 'randomly' selected to be assessed) had to put plans in place to improve. In the case I know a little about, they do have plans to introduce some bursaries, and have started the fundraising - they can't just whack up fees for existing children, some families are already struggling and while I believe a couple of cases have been granted a 'fees holiday' they don't have a hardship fund. Don't know how long it will take before they have enough and then I don't see how it could be for many kids.

Peachy yes your right many were forced into it to keep their charitable status but I think we should give some the benefit of the doubt and assume that their motivations are genuine. i know of someone who didn't get a bursary to Eton because they lived in a "8 bed pile" there were told to sell it buy something smaller to raise the money. I've also heard of someone else who inherited a massive pile paid death duties and couldn't sell it because it was so falling run down and had to spend their money making it habitable they got a bursary. There will always be stories about people who did and didn't get bursaries which seem unfair but you are only hearing part of a story.

Oh absolutely benfit of soubt; which is why I said most Heads were I am sure fine.

TBH I do know the rest of the story but I can't post erhe as an ex mumsnetter LOL. It was imo immensely unfair but it was of course one school and one decision.

I know we're heading off on a tangent about bursaries here, but I couldn't help but be about someone I knew who got a bursary for their child as the parents were both part-time gardeners. They had a lovely life - short hours, a grace and favour period home - and were able to holiday in the wife's parents' holiday homes in Cornwall and France. I just couldn't see how they deserved a bursary for their child when they had made a specific lifestyle choice.

And it must be said that most schools do not really give many bursaries as they are so expensive to fund so it's not a major issue. The assisted places scheme which allowed some children to be funded by the state at private schools was abused a bit by some who pretended their income was lower than it was.

Yep, funny how my ex got an Assisted Place yet when it was removed his siblings still went..... a triumph of accountancy that one!