"We need elitism in schools" Do you agree with Dave?

[Pantone]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8751220/David-Cameron-we-need-elitism-in-schools.html

What do you think of this?

Yes I know there are some amazing state secondaries, there is one that gets very good results near me (out of catchment unfortunately), but I haven't chosen state education for various reasons.

I sort of agree with him. Certainly my dd (8) is a quiet, hard-working but lacking in confidence child. Her last year at school was a waste of time, where she wasn't noticed so sort of gave up academically. The rowdy troublesome ones took up all the teacher's time and interest. It shouldn't happen, but it did. I am hoping dd's teacher this year is more on the ball and sees her. If not we'll be changing school.

Ah, ok MrsR - I work part-time in one school and I have a child in year 6 and a child in year 10 at different ones.

You're quite right that different schools are different, obviously, but AFAIK the merits/debits system (or whatever schools choose to call it) is fairly widespread these days, as are clear strategies of reward and sanction.

Malcontent, no that would be an exaggeration. But at the state primary that my youngest daughter attends, they have a STAR award scheme. These awards, for good behaviour and good work, in the main go to the more disruptive children as incentives for good behaviour. My friend's daughter, who is extremely bright and hard working, has never won one and my friend eventually asked why. The teachers said 'oh, x is good ALL the time, we know how good she is, she doesn't need encouragement'. I think THIS attitude is widespread, which, although not the end of the world, does not praise or reward normal, everyday excellent behaviour, which I believe is wrong.

bigbadmummy- My dd is the same age and had a similar experience last year. Her confidence and academic work suffered as a result of being igmored. One example I can give is her teacher never chose her to answer questions on class discussions. I asked him why this was so the year and he said ' well. she's always right'.
I think there is an element of this in many schools.

Pantone, I get the point you are making and it will seem unfair to a bright child.

The long term prize could be good exam results and eventually university.

But I do understand that will not necessarily be understood by a young child. Perhaps a school could devise an award for constant good behaviour.

Wll, 'as far as you know' says it all really. I think to dismiss anyones experience on the basis that it hasn't happened to you is insulting. I am happy for your children that they haven't experienced this but lots of othe children have.
Maybe it's more an inner city thing than where you are.

And reward systems vary wildly school to school.

Pantone- I complteley relate to your post. There does seem to be a widespread attitude of ignoring the well behaved kids as they 'don't need any encouragement' . We as parents know that this is not true, especially as many of them are on the quieter side and actually need their confidence building as much as as anyone.

my experience with state school (an ofsted rated outstanding primary) is that absolutely the more disruptive kids get the attention - by necessity rather than through bad teaching, it is impossible to teach a class properly if one child is behaving badly. One of the reasons we now go privately - there are still badly behaved children but somehow they seem to deal with it much more efficiently, almost certainly because of smaller class sizes.

Absoluteky custardcake- tthose golden stickers have become the bane of my existence!! DD has gone so long without gettingx one that it is eagerly anticipated every week and disappointment ensues

It is tempting to go private- I know my children would thrive but I DO want to support the state system. I am seeing how this year goes.

I hate them (star awards). I am afraid my youngest daughter and I now laugh about how the same children get them every week. I was loathe to 'undermine' the school but she (my dd) really thought she never did anything noteworthy and I am afraid I am not having that!

My experience at school< Mrs Ruffallo. Pretty mundane. Late starter, a bit puny at that age, .Junior school, ok. Big town Sec Mod, totally unsuitable for me. 3 village schools, I enjoyed them . ll-plus? I may have frozen, dont tell anyone....it was funny tragic. University Of Life? I picked up many things. Still learning.

mrsruffallo - I really agonised over it. We originally planned to only send dd1 as she had various issues and problems at the state primary but 'unfortunately' once we had seen what private school did for her we ended up sending dc2 and will soon be sending dc3...

I think they dont work because they are so wishy washy and non specific. And because they are the only game in town. At our private school you get Head's commendations for particularly excellent academic work, Golden Certificates for particularly kind and thoughtful behaviour, Colours/half colours for sporting achievements and just heaps of praise from the teachers/head which really helps to build confidence. Basically everyone gets something - so in fact less 'elitist' than the primary star award bollocks.

Reminds me of the school sports days with 'everyone is a winner' nonsense, I wouldn't be surprised if many children don't bother with that mentality floating around.

Pantone- I have had a similar discussion with DD! I just got fed up with her thinking she hadn't done enough to deserve it a sticker. I told her to rely on us (her parents) to reward her as their system was farcical. I have lots of freinds with children at private school and it does seem that private school does seem to instill more confidence/good behaviour(as well as beautiful handwriting!) It must be the smaller class sizes.
Custard cake- I am afraid you have to have the cynical discussion detailed below! DD is in yr 4 now and has an old school 'strict' teacher this year so I am quietly optimistic.

I don't agree with prizes for all at all - why should you be rewarded for sitting still? My dd's Belgian teacher gives them points - they can earn them for all sorts of things, and lose them just as easily for bad behaviour or not completing work. When they've earned enough they get a little token gift.

She also manages a class of 27 children by herself. No TA's, though they split into groups with different teachers for some activities and there is a Remedial specialist who works with dcs who are struggling. There are NO issues with discipline. Lord knows how she manages it.

Hi, reality check time. My ds just moved from his excruciating independent school to the local FE college. He is doing Maths, further maths, and Physics, and two things ASTONISHED him. The classrooms were completely silent, no mucking about. And the kids - some of them adult learners - couldn't answer any of the teachers' questions. The teacher was fine, he thinks.

Ok, one week in... but it is pretty suggestive. The somewhat depressed academic achievement in the state sector as a whole is not due to misbehaviour in any simple or corrigible form.

Yes, the 'no winner' sports day system is nonsense.

seiglinde - probably completely silent as they were all texting on their phones