"We need elitism in schools" Do you agree with Dave?

[Pantone]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8751220/David-Cameron-we-need-elitism-in-schools.html

What do you think of this?

What I would say is that star awards/stickers/special mentions do often seem to work more like this in primary schools - especially at KS1. And yes, our primary has special mentions of which every child in the school must get two in an academic year, and they can be for anything from 'consistently powerful writing' to 'making the most of the learning opportunities on a school trip'. And yes, that can seem a bit pointless, if your child is generally well-behaved or bright.

I would also say though that this changes in secondary. I don't see badly behaved children getting stickers and awards - although I do see them getting time and attention devoted to them to get them the best results of which they are capable, and I think this is good. But I also see good behaviour and academic achievement rewarded as well.

One thing I noticed at year 7, was that instead of 'we have chosen 6 children who we think will really enjoy and get the most out of a science workshop' type language to cloak G&T trips, the langauage becomes a lot more direct: this is a G&T activity and your kid is on it'.

I do think that at primary the focus is, and should be, different. And I think that the best and right thing to do is to explain to the 'good' child who doesn't get the stickers is that you, and their teacher, do appreciate them but that the stickers/awards are for different things.

Malcontent-I would suggest that the experiences people have shared on this thread prove that your original statement was misjudged and misinformed wouldn't you? This was it;
Only someone who had never been inside a school in the last 15 years would say that disruptive kids get accolades for sitting still, and that this is to the detriment of better behaved children.

mrsruffalo, do you also think it nonsense in academic matters?

No, the fact that the parents of some children on here haven't got as many stickers as they would like does not mean that it is true to say that schools heap accolades on pupils for sitting still and never praise those who deserve it (or whose parents think they deserve it!).

sieglinde, If your talking about the 'no winner' mentality then I would say it is nonsense in any form.

It gives this impression that they are all the same that no one is better at one thing than another person that they all have to do things the same way. It's why children are constantly pushed towards the same things, otherwise they are seen as lesser.

Seems to me that any 'blanket rules' can make a nonsense of themselves, at times. OTOH, common sense, sensitivity and a degree of flexibility can make rules and systems useful - otherwise whatever system schools use are going to leave out and/or penalise some children.

I'm not sure sensitivity, common sense and flexibility are Dave's strong points I'm no expert, but my feeling is he means well and has some good ideas, but also has major blindspots and could do with living another couple of decades to gain some understanding of what 'complexity' means.

dd, who has just started Y3 (admittedly in a class of 24, which is great), tells me they now have a 'points system' and can earn small prizes for all sorts of effort and good behaviour/work. They also have a 'warning system', whereby children can 'earn' time out and lost playtimes, but the two systems are separate and distinct. You do not lose points. So the less well behaved amongst them can still be penalised, without losing their incentives system - whilst the well behaved avoid the penalties but still get recognition. I rather like it.

elibean - that is what happens in the primary school DS2 is in (the same when DS1 and DD were there). There is a 'ladder' for good work - the pupil progresses up the ladder for acheiving academic goals. There is a different system for noting good and bad behaviour, and yes, there is a sin bin when pupils have been a total PITA (not literally - their names are written under a frowning face on the board). As far as I can tell no-one resents either system or gets in strop because they don't get stickers (nor thankfully do their parents).

There has to be a way of appreciating that some children have improved - and yes obviously the little PITAs are the ones who have scope to improve more. If you are usually really really good, sitting nicely in the carpet isn't going to be that amazing really. Mine were always well-behaved and rarely got rewarded for that (in fact I can't think of a single sticker any of them received for 'being good' - but if you spoke to any of their teachers it was always clear how much they appreciated them. And the parents evenings and end of year report made that clear too. Somehow the teachers managed (even without constantly plastering them with stickers) to ensure they understood the need for good behaviour.

Anyway I must admit I read Dave's statement as pertaining more to secondary school pupils rather than primary even though this discussion seems to be focussing on little children for some reason.

And children lose 'golden time' if they misbehave.

The biggest winners of the "prizes for all" mentality of the last few years have been the sticker manufacturers.

Dd showed an early cynicism when I asked her why her sticker chart was virtually empty. She simply replied "Lots of stickers means you're a Circle." The Circles was the bottom group.

It does depend on the school, though, and Infant Schools are notorious for well-meaning over-stickering and attempts to subdue competition. I avoided Sports Day like the plague: "participating in modules", anybody?

In infants, yep. Boring but harmless IMO. I don't know any secondary schools that have non-competitive sports days though.

Quite malcontent - partly because those who aren't interested in sports have usually managed to disengage from it by that point and really aren't that bothered if the sporty types want to race/bat/hurdle themselves to death whilst they sit and chat on the sidelines In primary, early years at least, all the poor kids take it so seriously.

Yes, there's a time for being competitive and IMO, it needn't start at the age of 4.

Yes, I think smaller classes in private schools will make a vast difference.

If I was young again, I would prefer one to one with Stephen Fry, Jonathon Millar or Mariella Frostrop.

Seriously, when I was at school I rarelt came across teachers who punished
the whole class. But in Primary for the last 20 minutes of the week , Miss read Black Beuty to us. (it was the thing we really liked and I think it was used as a threat.)

A cracked Headmaster came on Radio 4 and said he caned the whole school and got a round of applause for it.

Before your time I suspect

There are also academic studies showing that extrinsic rewards are demotivating - see Punished by Rewards for a summary. So stickers are not a good plan. Why not work up to a proper prize, one that's actually worth something?

Something needs to be done though doesnt it, the last government meddled and meddled with education, degree for almost any subject. I like the sound of what DC has said, bring discipline back, no mobiles allowed in school, dress properly, if you dont you are sent home, I am fed up with feckless children and their parents mucking it up for the rest of the class. If you dont want to learn and your parents arent bothered one way or the other - have special schools that are trained to deal with the troublemakers.

And I really dont believe that a bright child will do well ANYWHERE! Really.....

'No, the fact that the parents of some children on here haven't got as many stickers as they would like does not mean that it is true to say that schools heap accolades on pupils for sitting still and never praise those who deserve it (or whose parents think they deserve it!).'

This is outrageous. All children need encouragement and confidence building. To suggest our discussion was focusing on how many stickers our children recieved is willfully ignorant.

Er...just to bring it back to Dave...usual simplistic trite bollocks.
On the subject of rewards/stickers, I just explain to my DC that some children need more encouragement to behave well than others. Not a difficult concept to grasp really, even for a little one. They're not bothered about stickers anyway

is it simplistic?

Yes

I have read the article.

He is talking in vague soundbites, there is no substance. I cannot get a hold on one interesting educational idea that he is actually trying to drive forward.

It is political 'sound-good-feel-good' porridge.

pointydog Quite

snazaroo Dictionary definition of 'simplistic'
The tendency to oversimplify an issue or a problem by ignoring complexities or complications

I rest my case

Yep. Dave isn't au fait with 'complexity', at this point in time.

I do agree - it is the most sensible thing I have heard him say