Changes to holidays - debate on woman's hour

[fivecandles]

Apparently Nottingham LEA is piloting a change to school holidays such that the long summer holiday is reduced to 4 weeks but the half-terms become 2 weeks long so no time lost in total, just redistributed. I think it's a really good idea for all the reasons given on the programme and I'm a teacher. Anyone else got thoughts?

Well, once again, our experience differs, Jabed. Like most teachers I spend a good few weeks every September remining my students what they were taught the previous year. It takes a long time to get them back into the routine. Obviously this is more of an issue if they've spent all summer attached to their xbox without any supervision.

With my own kids, it's the same deal, even though both dp and I have been off with them for 6 weeks. September is still a massive shock to all of us.

With respect fivecandles there is a difference between making academic leaps and bounds during a holiday and suffering academically.
Experience suggests that it isn't a fact that all children suffer academically for some children (especially the youngest learners) it provides a much needed breather.

I am not personalizing anything fivecandles. I am suggesting you have drawn far reaching conclusions from very little research evidence.

You still have not answered my question.

As I said earlier Memo to self : Do not apply for a job in Nottingham LEA any time soon.

I also said earlier that I know of an LEA who introduced this programme and quietly dropped it when it didnt have the desired effect. It seems the research is selective in publication.

You may have your own personal reasons for arguing against a change and that's fine. I understand the poster whose husband is in the forces has very particular circumstances that mean the 6 weeks is really helpful to her and I respect that. But most teachers and parents will understand the reasoning behind the suggesions.

My view is that what we would lose in summer we would gain in terms of opportunties in having more meaningful holidays elsewhere. And where it might be nice for me personally to keep my 6 week holiday it's pretty obvious that academcially there would be huge advantages.

No more so that the transition times between yr 6 and 7 and yr 11 to 12 and 12 to 13.

There's been loads of research about kids regressing by up to a year between year 6 and 7. And I know that kids' brains turn to mush between yr 11 to year 13 because they've had weeks and weeks off.

OK, let's put it a different way.

What is to be lost for the majority of children by redistributing the holidays that couldn't be outweighed by the advantages of having more meaningful holidays elsewhere?

What question, Jabed?

mrz, a month is still quite a hefty breather.

The research suggests that at best students plateau and at worst regress academically by a couple of months in maths in particular. This is most marked for kids who have the most obstacles to success anyway.

I think that's a real shame if it can be avoided.

Well, Jabed, it seems to have been successful at Greensward where results improved by 20%

I know in 2003 twenty five LAs changed to a 6 term year with more even holidays and prior to that some piloted 5 term years with equal holidays. What I can't seem to discover is how many, as in the case of my neighbouring authority, reverted to the old system.

My view is that what we would lose in summer we would gain in terms of opportunties in having more meaningful holidays elsewhere.

Maybe you can expelain to me how two weeks in a soggy , dark and cold February is more " meaningful" than two weeks in a warmer lighter ( if not drier ) July?

Define the " meaningful" there.

Living in Edinburgh one week off at February is unbearable but 2 is absolutely unthinkable.

I know in 2003 twenty five LAs changed to a 6 term year with more even holidays and prior to that some piloted 5 term years with equal holidays. What I can't seem to discover is how many, as in the case of my neighbouring authority, reverted to the old system

The LEA I was working for was probably amongst those 23 mrz. I dont know about the others but like your neighbouring LEA, the one I worked for dropped the system quietly after about three years. It didnt work academically. It only produced a temporary "high" in academic achievements ( as had summer schools which had been run before that) . Absence rates increased ( alleged illness). Behaviour problems went through the roof and parents complained it didnt suit them either.

But things like that do not get reported. They are just left to die a death quietly.

No no crackfox you can go abroad.
And during your two week half term in Feburary.

Why not buy a second property in Antigua?

Working parents (unless they are teachers) get 4-6 weeks holiday a year. Most people are not able to have more than 2 weeks off at a time. Children get 13 weeks holiday a year. How does this equate to "spending time with parents"?

Back in the olden days mummies didn't have to go to work, or did work they could take children to as well. Isn't it time we took social changes into account?

But the proposals aren't for any fewer holidays...just a different spread.

So working families will still need to find childcare.

And to be fair, today at the park there were loads of nannies and CMs and GPs out enjoying the sunshine with their charges. The DC were still egtting the advantage of being outside even if their parents were in the office.

Well this year we've had fabulous weather in March and April, while July has rained every single day. Last year August was a wash-out. I would rather have time at home when it's nice than in freezing cold July and August

What a bunch of miseries you really are. How on earth do you cope at Christmas if you can't stand bad weather? Perhaps you should campaign to have it banned?

I live in one of the rainiest parts of England. It rains all summer as well as all winter. TBH there's often not a huge amount of difference between October, February and August.

By meaningful what I mean is that in 2 weeks you can properly wind down, go away (it's almost impossible to go abroad in 1 week where it's possible in 2), do some preparation for the next half-term, visit people etc in a way that's very difficult in 1. You barely feel the benefit of 1 week but 2 weeks is a proper holiday. It's like how you feel after the Easter holiday.

word, I think I've already addressed the point about childcare.

As a parent I would be much less concerned about leaving my kids for 2 weeks in a playscheme or with a childminder or grandparent or anyone than I would be for 6. I would be extremely uncomfortable about them being anywhere apart from school for that length of time. And I'm pretty sure that they would be to. I know that many parents feel the same way. And I know their kids do too.

And unsupervised kids get into a hell of a lot more trouble in 6 weeks than in 2.

I've already said that my own kids get fidgetty after 6 weeks. They're ready to go back to school. Except they're not because they've got so far out of the routine.

I really don't 5 candles and I am not convinced it makes any difference. If it affects all kids then it is a level playing field. Some of these 'poor' (probably not financially) will be the same whatever you do for them. Why should they call all the shots.

also why should I be ashamed. Alot of people like the long summer break when the weather is hopefully good. at least with the summer everyone is off at the same time.

It may be more problematic if one child is at one school and it doesn't fall into line with their sisters school etc.

Back in the olden days mummies didn't have to go to work, or did work they could take children to as well. Isn't it time we took social changes into account?

To be fair I think we need to overcome a few of these falacies about the olden days. I am an older dad ( I guess that is apparent ladies , although I thank you kindly for not mentioning it too much :) )

I was brought up in those "olden days". I can assure you many mums worked. Just as many as now and probably more working class mums worked back then. You could not take your children to the workplace. Hours were longer too and didnt fit in with children.

Whilst there were more stay at home mums or mums who worked shiufts to fit around children there were also many kids who had both parents out.
I played with many latch key kidsas a lad. I was a latch key kid myself for a while when my mother had to change jobs and couldnt get time off.

I was also farmed out to my grandmother during holidays. So no difference there really. There was less reliance on child care- that was always gran or latch kkey frankly. I cannot recall anyone having " child care" paid for when I was a nipper. You wouldnt afford it on working peoples wages.

Now here lies the rub. These working class mums were the very ones who would be those being targetted by this move because they were the " deprived". I would wager though that these days most of those mums who fall into this category are unemployed/ on benefits and so have no child care issues. Such is social change.

Dp works in a school for kids with severe EBD. In Easter and xmas they and their parents just about cope. I'm not joking when I say that after 6 weeks they come back with ASBOS. If they come back at all. Sometimes dp works ridiculously hard to get school refusers to come in to only to have them totally lose the plot and any sort of motivation over summer.

And this is not just difficult kids. I teach primarily A Level. And my students have practically forgotten their own names during summer. When they've also learnt how to lie in, how to go to the pub, how not to do any work...

And my own kids. DC2 had really got her timestables sussed before we broke up...

So, is that what you'd say, alemci, if a kid came to you and said, well, my parents have basically left me on my own all summer so I've forgotten everything I've learnt and I haven't had any sort of routine or even be properly fed.

Well, life's not fair. Why should I be ashamed?

Because that is your attitude. And it stinks.

We should all care about these kids. They are all of our responsibility.

And if we don't care. These will be the kids that vandalise your cars and that you have to fund when they don't get their exams and can't get jobs.

And, as I've repeatedly said, it's not just poor kids.

6 weeks is too long for my own kids even though dp and I are both teachers and have the time off with them.

"What a bunch of miseries you really are. How on earth do you cope at Christmas if you can't stand bad weather? Perhaps you should campaign to have it banned?"

Christmas is quite entertaining and TBh the TV is pretty good.

February is shit. They have only been back at school 4 weeks then get another week off.

OK it has rained most of the school holidays so far (3 weeks so far in Scotland) but at least it hasn't snowed and it is fairly warmish.

I'm not as old as jabed but think I probably qualify for being a child in the olden days and my mum worked full time as did most of my friend's mothers. As jabed says my grandmother and aunt cared for me and most children went to extended family who lived nearby or the community looked out for them.