Changes to holidays - debate on woman's hour

[fivecandles]

Apparently Nottingham LEA is piloting a change to school holidays such that the long summer holiday is reduced to 4 weeks but the half-terms become 2 weeks long so no time lost in total, just redistributed. I think it's a really good idea for all the reasons given on the programme and I'm a teacher. Anyone else got thoughts?

[Wants3]

I love looking forward to the long summer break. There is no need to rush to do anything because we know we have 6 weeks. I feel that my children and those I work with need time just to kick back and be children. More funding should be put into the wonderful play schemes and centres instead of shortening holidays!

[wheresthepimms]

I think the problem here is that 5candles thinks that the most important thing in a childs education is a measurable amount of maths and English. What happened to be rounded children who know how to play, problem solve, interact socially and emotionally with other children. These are all the things they learn in their long summer break and they also need the downtime away from the rigid learning structure of school. My DD10 has spent the first 3 weeks of the holidays asking to do nothing as she is so tired from school and just wants free time.

If you are worried about the 6 weeks making a grades difference in exam results then why are we not changing the school year to have several admission times with a continuous educational rota so that those born in August don't drop a grade due to being the youngest in the year? It is unfair on them that they are the youngest but we don't change the system for that minority do we?

[mrz]

I think the small number of children who "forget" were never secure in the knowledge or skill and this problem rather than the length of the summer holidays should be the issue.

[bebanjo]

5candels, do you really believe that ALL CHILDREN FORGET the previous terms work in the 6 weeks holiday?
could it be that they never really understood it?
or are you proposing that the more time spent out of the classroom the more is forgotten?
so maybe never leave school, because if you take a year out you will have to go back and redo it, of course brain dead adults like myself can barely remember how to writ my own name.
Your DC get bored in the summer break, i would say they need to feel that boredom more often, not less. Its what you do with your boredom that is interesting, that is when you discover who you are and where your true interests lie.
It has already been established (i believe) that the most important factor to a child's success is parental interest and involvement, for example reading to your child. i would love to know how shifting 2 weeks of a child's annual holiday would effect parental involvement?

[jabed]

I believe in industry the manufacturing summer holidays are still around three weeks in the middle of August. Six weeks school holiday at this time is far less disruptive to parents who will find it easier to get child care as well as have time off with their families in the summer. Factories do not close down at any other time of year.

[jabed]

But neither do I want them to forget up to a months worth of schooling each summer.

They will not forget anything that has been properly learned in the first place.

Why would anyone put six weeks holiday in the summer rather than some other time of year or divided so that it is spread across other seasons? I think that has been answered because it is summer. The weather is better. The days longer. Children can play out more and do more activities.

Why should it be long? Children need more time to recover from long school terms than adults do from work.

I cannot understand your bandwagon fivecandles and I am certainly not jumping on it for you.
I disagree with everything you have said on this subject.

[fivecandles]

I also don't want my kids to spend their summer doing sums, which is why I don't. But neither do I want them to forget up to a months worth of schooling each summer. It's about balance isn't it? I'd rather a better balance between intense long terms and then a very long holiday all at once. I don't think the all or nothing scenario is conducive to kids or teachers or families for that matter. And most parents agree that the holiday is too long.

[CMOTdibbler]

I think this sort of change would make life harder for working parents tbh - the current schedule means that there is a plentiful supply of staff (6th formers and uni students, plus TAs/teachers) and venues for summer holiday care, plus as everyone is off at the same time, it is economic for companies to put things on.

Can't see how things would be improved by reducing these.

TBH, I think there is far too much school holiday, and we need to reduce it.

Disclaimer - I am a FT WOHM, who has 5 weeks holiday a year (and a similar dh, plus no family help) who can't have weeks of unstructured time, just a complex timetable of my leave, dhs leave, holiday club etc

[fivecandles]

Look, let's put it another way. If we were writing the school calendar now and had to stick with 13 weeks holiday, on what grounds could it possibly be argued that it would be better to have 6 weeks at summer, 1 week half-terms 2 weeks at Christmas and a moveable 2 week Easter. How could you possibly justify such a calendar?

[fivecandles]

'I can genuinely say that I have never met any pupil who has failed to get a specific grade because of a 6 week holiday.'

I'm not sure that it's ever going to so easy to measure. I have certainly taught many students who have failed to meet their potential because of what they did or didn't do on holidays. I have also told you that my dp works in a school for children with severe EBD where every year there are children who fail to return at all in September. I don't think we should underestimate the impact of 6 weeks of no routine in a chaotic homelife for children.

[BeehiveBaby]

I have always thought that schools should open 4 days a week for 45 weeks of the year (I think that's about right for days), not that bothered when the 7 weeks holidays are really and also can't work out whether an area should have the schools all doing the same days or different, pros and cons to both.

[fivecandles]

Jabed, I have no problems with my teaching or my results thanks. I also find it extraordinary that you should see the fact that I feel that we should change the holidays to better meet the needs of children (and their parents and society in general) is a reason to question my ability to teach!!!

[jabed]

I have 15 years experience as a teacher ample opportunity to compare the effects of a 2 week holiday and a 6 week holiday.

Oh now we have that " my experience is bigger than yours do we?

Well it isnt bigger than mine. I have also got the tee shirt fropm those experiments where holidays have been changed, so you may fool some with your broken record but it wont be me.

[fivecandles]

Yes, Jabed, I think the 6 week holiday does affect all children. I'm saying it may be less noticeable to you because of the nature of your workplace and also because your perceptions and experiences of education are rather unusual in all sorts of ways.

[fivecandles]

Yes, moved, midnight. Not lost. You still have 4 weeks in summer. That is a long break. You ALSO have extended holidays in the autumn and spring term.

Many families would welcome the opportunity to have a proper rest at these times.

You cannot seriously argue that 4 weeks is not a long enough holiday in summer and in the same breath argue that a week is long enough in autumn and spring. That's just not logical. If teachers and children are tired and stressed in summer then they are also tired and stressed in October and February.

[jabed]

Jabed, you are being extremely disingenuous. You work in a private school where students with SEN or behavioural difficulties are 'kicked out'. That is not the reality of education for most teachers or most children.

But fivecandles you said to me that this regression affects all pupils including my middle class hard working ones. You cannot have it both ways.

As I said earlier, I too have taught in an inner city deprived school ( was once the worst in the country) with a 35% SEN intake. I never saw what you are talking about then.

[fivecandles]

Your arguments just don't make any sense. How is changing the pattern of holidays got anything whatsoever with teaching your children that there is more to life than school or work? They still have exactly 13 weeks holiday.

I'm beginning to wonder whether the 6 weeks holiday has had an impact on your learning and ability to logic, Jabed. Whether you put 500 ml of water in one glass or two it's still 500 ml.

[jabed]

A 6 week break from learning can make the difference between a B and and A or an A and right now that could make the difference between whether a student gets into university or not.*

Come on, thats not true! Lets not over egg the cake here. You are talking to a seasoned teacher and a bloke who has been around a good few years more than you. I can genuinely say that I have never met any pupil who has failed to get a specific grade because of a 6 week holiday.

I think more and more as you continue this fivecandles that really you need to take a step back and a long hard look at how you are teaching. ( I havent forgotten all those discussions where you told me I lacked committment because I refuse to bring pupils in for Easter revision classes and after school session.

I dont need to bring them in for holiday revision . I do not see them reg4ressing in the summer break and it does not affect my exam results or the achievements of my pupils.

[midnightexpress]

What is there to lose? Erm, two weeks holiday in the summer, for one thing.

And yes, I know it's not lost but moved.

[fivecandles]

Jabed, it is NOT all about school.

I have said many times that the value of holiday time is not being questioned here.

You would still have FOUR WEEKS holiday in summer. You would not lose a single day of holiday.

Do you not read what I write?

Of course the learning has not been 'complete' for a 6 year old in July.

You do not learn something and then it's there forever. That is not the way the brain works.

[fivecandles]

midnight, I have linked to various pieces of evidence which suggest that there is a learning loss over the 6 week break. This is most marked in students from disadvantaged backgrounds who are even less likely to practise the skills they have learned over the holidays.

I have 15 years experience as a teacher ample opportunity to compare the effects of a 2 week holiday and a 6 week holiday.

It is also common sense that 6 weeks is going to have more impact than 4 weeks.

Of course, there is no absolute way of knowing unless you change the system but it seems to me to be worth a try.

What is there to lose???

[jabed]

Make progress at whatever they are learning at that point in the school year.

Its all about school for you isnt it fivecandles? Do you have a life outside of school?

I trust if I teach my DS one lesson in life it will be that school is not the alpha and omega of existence and that he should have a healthy respect for what life is about AND THAT THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN WORK OR SCHOOL.

I repeat if they are not making progress or are regressing then the learning has not been complete or the teaching effective. I do not care what point in the school year we are at. That will be a fact. Maybe you need to look at what learning objectives you are setting such that they cannot be met and consolidated before the summer break? Maybe you need to look at your teaching techniques if they are failing to be effective such that whatever targets you are setting are being subject to regression?

[midnightexpress]

Facts, Mr Gradgrind. Facts.

I Don't Want My Children To Spend Their Summer Doing Sums.

[fivecandles]

'I ask again what is it you are doing ( or not doing) differently to me and other teachers I work with? I have not found it taking any time at all for students to get to some point they were supposedly at before the holidays.

I know precisely where they were before the holidays and when we come into school refreshed after our 8 weeks summer break we all hit the ground running within a couple of days and get on with what we are doing. There is no so called regression or slow start or having to get back anywhere. '

Jabed, you are being extremely disingenuous. You work in a private school where students with SEN or behavioural difficulties are 'kicked out'. That is not the reality of education for most teachers or most children.

It is also ridiculous to argue that no student forgets anything over the 6 week holiday (and imply that it is the fault of the teacher if they do). I know from my own experience as an adult and an enthusiastic and successful learner that it takes time to get back into the routine of learning.

You repeatedly ignore the points I make. Do you not see that an athlete cannot take 6 weeks out and expect to achieve the same results? Do you not see that a pianist cannot take 6 weeks out and expect to achieve the same results? It is the same with maths. And any learning. You have to practise.

[midnightexpress]

How on earth do you know that it can make that difference when you have nothing to compare a 6 week holiday with? Nowhere, afaik, currently has a four week holiday atm, so any statements like that are your opinion rather than a statistical observation.