Changes to holidays - debate on woman's hour

[fivecandles]

Apparently Nottingham LEA is piloting a change to school holidays such that the long summer holiday is reduced to 4 weeks but the half-terms become 2 weeks long so no time lost in total, just redistributed. I think it's a really good idea for all the reasons given on the programme and I'm a teacher. Anyone else got thoughts?

If you want to be a serious sports person you would find it very difficult to take a 6 week break and then return at the same level. It's the same with learning. And particularly with maths which needs regular practise and which is not likely to be practised over summer.

My kids get loads of maths practice all summer adding up what they want to buy out of the Argos catalog (sigh).
Oh darnit, I forgot, that's another "Middle Class" pastime, isn't it?

What about telling the time at the Metro station, working with scales cooking, dividing up the sweets equally, the fact that if you ask mummy a question you have to answer her maths question first before she will answer your question (oh sorry is that just me)

Maths is everywhere you don't have to be super clever to work it into things, although as they get older not sure how I will work calculus into everyday life [goes off to ponder emoticon] Have however managed to work geometry into this holiday already with areas and perimeter calculations for the cardboard box car they wanted to make

ragged only middle class if it's the John Lewis catalog

Well, we all had 6 weeks holiday and it doesn't seem to have done me any lasting damage. Somehow, I've managed to get me an edyukayshun, despite spending the summers climbing trees and hanging out with my friends.

And, I do take my children's education very seriously, thank you fivecandles, it's just that I disagree with you about how best this should be achieved.

And I think we have all understood that they aren't losing any holiday. It's just that some of us would prefer that holiday to be in the summer when the DC can be outdoors than in February or October. And yes, four weeks is a long holiday, but it's not as long as six weeks, or the 7.5 weeks that our DC currently get here. See, I can even do maths after my long summer holiday.

I am weighing in having read Page 1 and Page 13 of this!

Please, please bring on 4 weeks in the 'summer' (hah!), and increase Whitsun and October half terms to 2 weeks.

My reasons:

-There remain no good historical reasons to retain 6 to 6 1/2 weeks from mid July to the beginning of September.

-Many DCs require half a term, especially in primary school to bring back up to speed after such a long break.

-Whilst teaching can be tough, you're not seriously suggesting fully grown adults require that long to recharge batteries (surgeons don't!).

-the weather is now consistently better in June than August.

-it would appear, having followed many threads on MN, that the chief (non-teaching) supporters of looong summer hols are SAHMs who suddenly have no externally prescribed routine to trouble their days. Many appear to live in leafy, sunlit dells where their DCs seem to re-enact an Enid Blyton childhood of 'out from dawn til dusk with lashings of ginger beer'.

-week in, week out 'Holiday Club' can be a drag for DCs of working parents.

• holiday companies might, just might have to stagger their price hikes for holidays a bit!

Bring It On.

It may not matter to you but it matters to me that I see this in both my own kids and the kids I teach

If this is the case then I think you need to ask yourself what it is you are doing ( or not doing) that is different to the rest of us.

I do not see and never have seen any such regression - so maybe we need notes on why yours regress and mine do not? This of course is not because I teach middle class kids because your argument is that all kids regress to an extent. But then when I worked in a very deprived school I did not find any regression there either.

As I said, you need to look at what you are doing that I am not since your students regress so visably.

-the weather is now consistently better in June than August.

Well then, change to the more sensible holidays we have in Scotland - finish in June and go back in August.

-it would appear, having followed many threads on MN, that the chief (non-teaching) supporters of looong summer hols are SAHMs who suddenly have no externally prescribed routine to trouble their days. Many appear to live in leafy, sunlit dells where their DCs seem to re-enact an Enid Blyton childhood of 'out from dawn til dusk with lashings of ginger beer'.

I find that rather offensive actually. I'm not an SAHM and I certainly don't live in a leafy sunlit dell. It's a lot less bloody sunlit in Glasgow in February too than it is in July.

'If this is the case then I think you need to ask yourself what it is you are doing ( or not doing) that is different to the rest of us.'

I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting here, Jabed. What I am NOT doing over the 6 weeks holiday quite clearly is teaching. I would have thought that makes me exactly the SAME as pretty much every other teacher in the country. Or do some teachers not teach better than others

'I do not see and never have seen any such regression'

Well, once again, your experience or your perceptions are rather different from others in education. That's hardly a surprise is it, Jabed?

Are you honestly arguing that over 6 weeks your students forget nothing?

Your son is really quite little still and anyway he's being home edded so you won't see the impact of the long holiday in the way I do with my own kids, but you will, you will.

My dc1 is sporty and goes to a school with good extra-curricular provision and excellent sport coaching and competition. However much activity we do at home we cannot replicate this sort of experience at home and naturally, her muscle tone, speed and skill is not at the same level in September as it was in July. It's just the same with maths. Yes, she reads and we do educational stuff but we don't sit down and do fractions together. 6 weeks is a long time not to be making progress in a child's life and it's a long time to forget things.

When your son is older, regardless of what you are arguing for the sake of this discussion, you WILL find that even he forgets stuff during this time.

I agree, midnight. I also think the I'm alright Jack attitude and what does it matter about the odd 20% of kids who aren't truly stupefying in this day and age.

And I know that it takes ME a few weeks before I'm back on form in September.

fivecandles maybe you need to fill in this apparently not everyone is infused about it as you

also as far as I can find (in my limited google searches) the research about learning loss over the holiday periods all appears to have been funded by people who have a vested interest in proving it, i.e. a lot is done by the American versions of Kumon, exceler8te etc who want parents to use their services to avoid the learning loss. Do we have any truly independent research?

Oh and not all us SAHM live in suburbs and are non teachers I know a lot of SAHM who are teachers but choose to be home with their young DCs.

When your son is older, regardless of what you are arguing for the sake of this discussion, you WILL find that even he forgets stuff during this time.

Unfortunately when he gets older I doubt you will be around fivecandles and I wont be able to rub your nose in it when you are proved wrong.

We can all forget things. There is a difference between that and true regression . If there is regression then I would argue the learning did not take place properly in the first place. Students I teach do not regress because they have learned . The change in their behaviour and knowledge therefore is relatively permanent and is not lost.

Jabed, whatever you want to call it and however you want to look at it, children are not going to make progress over the 6 weeks and are likely to forget stuff/lose skills. So do adults. It takes a long time to get students back to the point they were at before the holidays in September. TBH it doesn't need a whole lot of research to prove the obvious. Learning maths is not much different from playing the piano - it takes practise.

As for not being around when your son gets older, I don't know what that's all about. Some sort of death threat???

If there is regression then I would argue the learning did not take place properly in the first place

I would agree with this

jabed's son is very young so I imagine he is saying that it is going to be some considerable time before this is apparent (if it happens) and this discussion will be long forgotten

Oh, come on, any teacher worth his or her salt knows the importance of practise.

If you try and go for a run after 6 weeks of not running or play the piano after 6 weeks of not running you know about it. There's an awful lot of maths I did at school that I don't think I could ever do now.

And some kids are not going to get the chance to learn stuff properly because, oops, they've got a 6 week holiday. Like dc2 and her times tables. She was just starting to make bloody good progress! And my AS students with their essay writing and grammatical terms. My first few weeks back will involve having to retrace a lot of old ground.

Jabed, whatever you want to call it and however you want to look at it, children are not going to make progress over the 6 weeks and are likely to forget stuff/lose skills.

Make progress at what precisely? I think you have a very narrow definition of progress there. Holidays are a time when children make progress in other things than school based ones. Even if they are not making progress, what does it matter? Its a holiday. We all need time out. Children more than anyone else.

It takes a long time to get students back to the point they were at before the holidays in September.

I ask again what is it you are doing ( or not doing) differently to me and other teachers I work with? I have not found it taking any time at all for students to get to some point they were supposedly at before the holidays.

I know precisely where they were before the holidays and when we come into school refreshed after our 8 weeks summer break we all hit the ground running within a couple of days and get on with what we are doing. There is no so called regression or slow start or having to get back anywhere.

TBH it doesn't need a whole lot of research to prove the obvious. Learning maths is not much different from playing the piano - it takes practise.

I agree about the practise but I do not agree that you need constant practice. There is always time for a break. Often it is needed. My DW is an accomplished musician - concert level. She often takes breaks but whilst it may have left her rusty for a couple of days it didnt have a serious effect. Piano and maths and riding a bike , like anything else are skills once learned are not forgotten and it doesnt take long to come up to speed again.

I repeat, if the students are regressing, then the task has not been learned.

jabed's son is very young so I imagine he is saying that it is going to be some considerable time before this is apparent (if it happens) and this discussion will be long forgotten

Thank you mrz, that is precisely what I meant.

I think too many short terms is a bigger obstacle to learning than one long holiday.

I would agree with that mrz. I think short breaks are likely to make it more difficult to have any continuity.

Fivecandles: I havent driven my car for four weeks now. Does that mean I have regressed and will not be able to recall how to drive when I have to go to work?

Of course not! I have learned how to drive. Once you learn something it is not just forgotten. The same goes for children and classroom learning.

Jabed, how many times? Nobody will lose any holiday. They still get 4 weeks and the rest of the holiday will be redistributed elsewhere. Nobody is questioning the value of holidays, just arguing that 6 weeks is too long in one go.