Changes to holidays - debate on woman's hour

[fivecandles]

Apparently Nottingham LEA is piloting a change to school holidays such that the long summer holiday is reduced to 4 weeks but the half-terms become 2 weeks long so no time lost in total, just redistributed. I think it's a really good idea for all the reasons given on the programme and I'm a teacher. Anyone else got thoughts?

I don't think 5C has any idea how badly (smug & arrogant) she comes across.
Plenty of people have children in secondary & primary at the same time, so basically have all perspectives.
Notts LEA has some of the most deprived places & pupils in the country, will be intersting to see how their experiment goes, but will take many years of data to conclude anything definitive.

Actually I didn't realise that this was still at the consultation stage, not due to start until 2012, and it's only to be tried in Nottm City (not the whole county). Given the havoc this will make with local term time variation problems (varying from rest of Notts not to mention Derbys/Leics will on different schedules), I expect it won't even get a pass thru the Consultation stage.

Details if no one saw earlier link.

Speaking as a secondary school teacher I do not agree with fivecandles . I do agree with ragged.

Just because someone plays a borken record telling us that four weeks is long enough doesnt mean it is. I for one think it is not long enough, and two weeks in October ( I already have by the way!) certainly would not make up for it.

I am not convinced of any educational argument. I do not and never have seen the degree of regression ( or plateau) suggested in either deprived schools or my current one.

I would still point to the fact that our education system worked fine on long summer breaks up until the 1980's. We had a world beating system. It doesnt appear anyone regressed and in earlier generations children even did more in fewer years of education - so I dont buy the argument.

Further, as a secondary school teacher I am aware of how much additional time I have just wated in the last month before the holidays because of the natural punctuation that comes with examination timetables at this time of year.

The long summer holiday is a good full stop denoting the end of one period and the beginning of another. It allows older pupils to work if they choose. It allows younger ones to recover ( as well as parents)

As a primary teacher I do see some regression but not in ALL children. However I see that same regression in this minority of children over a week or two week break so a shorter summer break isn't going to be a cure and putting extra time onto other holidays could actually worsen the problem in this small number of pupils.

Spot on Spotty (pardon the dreadful pun)

I just wish it were summer holidays all year long

'Just because someone plays a borken record telling us that four weeks is long enough doesnt mean it is.'

I do find it strange that my points have been misrepresented so that it sounds like I am on a one-woman mission promoting ideas that I have plucked out of thin air.

In fact, I picked up this point after it was discussed on Woman's Hour where it was picked up after a) Nottingham LEA proposed to move towards a shorter holiday www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=14982and b) the Institute for Public Policy Research produced a report news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7418899.stm which said that children regress over the long summer break.

Several other think tanks and LEAs are looking into this and at least one school, Greensward, a comp, in Essex has already moved towards this model and its results have since improved by 20%.

There is a great deal of research which suggests that it is in the academic and social interests of children to move to a shorter summer holiday (which will still be 4 weeks!!) and redistribute the holidays elsewhere in the year.

How arguing that what best works for children academically and socially is what we should aspire to is considered an 'arrogant and smug' position is beyond me. I agree with change because based on the research I've seen coupled with my own experience of 15 years teaching and my experience as a parent I believe it's in the interests of children, most parents and society as a whole.

But I think I need to reiterate that this is not MY personal campaign. There are many institutions and individuals who are arguing that things need to change and perhaps those of you who are so vehemently opposed to change should be talking to those who have the power to make the changes rather than directing your rather unpleasant attacks at me (when I am simply reporting research and proposals and saying I agree with the change).

I could go over the research again (including the fact that only 25% of parents disagree that the summer holiday is too long) but you can read back through the thread yourself. Against my arguments (which are entirely to do with what's best for children and what's best for society as a whole) those people have come up with only 2 arguments (and no evidence whatsoever) that goes along the lines of - I like things the way they are and it rains more in October.

So, we'll have to see what happens in Nottingham won't we? And continue to watch what happens at Greensward where the changes have proved very successful?

Here is the article about Greensward:

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/short-summer-break-leads-to-higher-grades-451656.html

'Since first planning the new system, its GCSE results have improved from 70 per cent getting five top grade A* to C grade passes, to 88 per cent last year.

That is despite facing competition from four selective grammar schools within 15 miles creaming off some of the brightest pupils in the area.

David Triggs, the school's headteacher, said: "The great thing is you don't have the summer learning loss that you had under the old system.

"Evidence from the United States suggests that once you move beyond a four-week break for pupils, their retention of knowledge just goes down the pan. You have to spend much of the time catching up on what you have already learnt."'

'Since introducing the new arrangements, several schools around the country have contacted Greensward to find how it works. Mr Triggs has also been appointed as chief executive officer for three other schools - including the Unity City Academy in Middlesbrough, the only one of Prime Minister Tony Blair's new flagship academies to fail its inspection by Ofsted, the education standards watchdog. Two weeks ago, it was removed from Ofsted's list of failing schools. "When we went out to consultation over the new timetable, there were objections raised - but we realised they were objections over convenience and not education," said Mr Triggs.

"Within a few weeks, even the dissenters were saying they now believed that the system was the right way forward."

'The long summer holiday is a good full stop denoting the end of one period and the beginning of another. It allows older pupils to work if they choose. It allows younger ones to recover ( as well as parents)'

Agreed, Jabed.

However, I think you'll find that this would also happen with a month of summer holiday and, arguably, you would also gain this affect in October and February as a result of the 2 week half-terms.

You see, as I keep pointing out, nobody is threatening to reduce the amount of holiday time over all. And, as I keep pointing out, 4 weeks is still quite a long holiday to have in summer.

fivecandles read this article here Yes they admit all the things you are saying but then say why change it for only 20% of the population. If you then read the comments of the public below the article you will find that most are not in favour of the shortened holidays. Some saying you disadvantage the poor more as by trying to fit in a summer break during 4 weeks the prices will be far more expensive and there will be less choice as more people will be trying to go at once

I know it is not your personal battle but as pointed out in the above article there is more to life than education children need to be children, especially after yesterday revelation that the poorest (as they are the ones less academically inspired) are going to be sent out to work at 14!!!

Well, technically it opens up the chances to make more cash for me - since I can supply across all that cluster of LEAs. In reality - I saw enough fucking chaos when Derby City I think it was decided to move the Easter holiday and the other LEAs didn't (we had the teachers refering to the bank holiday Easter period as "real Easter" and the moved holiday as "fake Easter") and it'll be chaos. Had teaching staff whose own kids were off school when they were in school and vice versa and I got no break at all cos I worked across both LEAs!

And yes it's only Nottingham City which is a different LEA to Nottinghamshire (think of it like the middle of a donut).

The only real regression I've ever tended to see isn't that much academically (within a couple of days the cobwebs have been blown off anyway) but in terms of behaviour when kids are returning to houses where there aren't many boundaries and come back into school completely off the wall for a few weeks - and that happens after every break - even the month of lots of bank holidays for the royal wedding set a fair few of 'em off!

Is that the same school as Greensward Academy, Hockley? Because here they clearly show their current school year, 2011-2012 has a conventional holiday regime (including 6 weeks in summer).

New Headteacher - new name - old holidays

It looks like they did the 4 week hol for a while (news of plans in 1998) but changed back at some point since the 2007 article 5C linked to earlier... I can't find a date or why the change (not so newsworthy?!). Also Greensward has had a HUGE amount of money plowed into its site, partly by the charitable trust that runs it as an academy and as part of big building programmes. I can't find any evidence of selective admissions, but effectively schools like that create higher house prices in the immediate area, a kind of indirect form of selection.

Maybe once their results soared, Outstanding Ofsted achieved, they were attracting such a better sort of customer they didn't have to worry about deprived intake so could revert to catering for a more "middle class" clientale.

Ah, but it's not that simple, MRZ!

David Triggs who was head of Greensward College, was (maybe is?) Chief Exec. Officer of the AET, the trust that runs Greenward as an Academy. So in fact, you'd think, he certainly could have insisted on keeping the old holiday regime.

He seems to move around a lot, head of Greensward in June 2007, and CEO of Unity City Academy in Middlesbrough in January 2006. It wasn't his idea at all, the 4 week holiday (he wasn't involved at all with Greensward in 1998, I think). I am going to ferret around some more about this guy...

ragged that is interesting as when I asked fivecandles before if the results of the change in holidays had been documented over a period of years, to rule out a blip of a brighter year, she didn't get back to me

Triggs deffo is head of AET, and none of their 4 Academies has a short summer holiday.
Jim Fuller, enthusiastic (?) spokesperson in the 1998 article about planned holiday change at Greenward, moved to be HT of another local Comp (FitzWimarc); they also do not have a short summer holiday currently.

It would be worthwhile to find out why Greensward changed back.

It looks to me like this idea has been tried sporadically in other places, but somehow never sticks for long. Why not?

Woodlands primary in Grimsby and Dixon College in Bradford also tried it in 1999.

Dixon City Academy now back on a conventional schedule.

Website for Woodlands is hopelessly out of date, but looks like they are on a conventional schedule, too, since 2009 or earlier.

Could the reversion back to normal be anything to do with the fact that the learning loss is more to do with social, economic factors and these will not change even if the holidays do. Think there is a lot more in play here than just the holidays being too long these kids lose interest and probably would after 2 weeks as they aren't encouraged at home to believe in themselves and that education can help them become "better" people (not sure better is the best word but the only one I can think of, sounds a bit condescending)

I'm not sure why it actually matters if children regress a little during the summer academically. I agree completely with spottyfrock. I want my DC to do nothing for days on end, to mooch about in their PJs until lunchtime, and then potter about outside. They get nowhere near enough time to do that during the academic year, and I don't want to do it in February when it's cold and dark, thanks. I loved the long holidays as a child and I'd hate to see them go, much as I gnash my teeth about them when I'm in the middle of them.

Fivecandles, you bang on about 'evidence' this and 'research' that, but as several posters have pointed out, evidence and research also suggest that children in many (if not most) other countries get way better results than we do (if you want to measure it in terms of league tables, but hat's another thread), and have much longer summer holidays than the UK.

From a personal perspective, ds1's health (mild asthma) has been way better over the holidays than when he's in school, and I would a billion squillion times rather he was happy and healthy than that he retained every last drop of what he was taught last term.

midnight with you 100% my DCs and I love the long holidays and so far in the 3 weeks we have been off no one has uttered the I'm bored phrase, we have played in the garden, been on bike rides and had a stay in pj's day and it is great helped by the unseasonably nice weather. Must qualify though the last 2 years we were in the USA and we had just over 3 months off in the summer, we traveled with our tent and had a great life experience, joke at the DCs school was that the Brits had been to more places than the Americans and when doing geography ask them as they will have been there . Think the holidays are what you make of them and long ones are so good to recharge and catch up on the family time that is so limited during term time

'Yes they admit all the things you are saying but then say why change it for only 20% of the population'

I can't believe that's a serious question.

You seriously can't see why it would be a good idea to change holidays in a way which would probably benefit all children and society in general but be of particular benefit to the most vulnerable children in society??

I wonder what some of you people are on. I really do. Perhaps we should just stick poor kids back in workhouses. And get all our kids writing with slates.

'there is more to life than education children need to be children',

But I don't understand what you think will be lost by rearranging the holidays.

I repeat they will still get FOUR WEEKS HOLIDAY IN SUMMER. They will not lose a single day of holiday time; it will simply be redistributed in an attempt to limit summer learning loss and allow families more flexibility about when they take holidays thus reducing term time absence.

'The only real regression I've ever tended to see isn't that much academically (within a couple of days the cobwebs have been blown off anyway) but in terms of behaviour when kids are returning to houses where there aren't many boundaries and come back into school completely off the wall for a few weeks'

Even if that is the case (and it's not my experience) I shouldn't need to tell you that the behaviour of a few impacts on the learning of the many.

It's a good reason for reducing the length of the summer holiday.

'I'm not sure why it actually matters if children regress a little during the summer academically. '

It may not matter to you but it matters to me that I see this in both my own kids and the kids I teach. It can take weeks to get students back up to the level they were at BEFORE they went on holiday. That's a lot of time wasted.

The research indicates that the effect is most marked on kids from disadvantaged backgrounds and that the effect is cumulative.