Teachers - are you voting yes for strike action

[sandgrounder]

Went to NUT meeting at school yesterday re pension reform. Cannot see myself teaching until 68 and who wants their kids taught by oldies not wanting to be there.

feenie. What you believe matters not. What does my speific financial contribution have to do with you? What?! What point are you trying to prove? You state your argument and I will fill in the financial blanks happily if relevant.

Fivecandles my standpoint is that the cuts we are suffering are having the most impact where it will matter in the future, the govenment is not applying any kind of logic so yes they might reduce the defecit short term but the impact is going to affect our society long term detrementally.
For the teaching profession to focus on pensions is short sighted as there will be no state pensions going forward. As a society we need to focus on spending money where it will generate income in the future but still taking into account current needs, supporting previously negotiated teachers benefits is not guaranteed to do that. Times and budgets have changed. Expectations need to also.

Because you answered other teachers with a point about your own financial contributions - you thought it a pertinent point with which to make your argument. You are making yourself look a bit daft by asking me why you made that point, and why it is relevant - once again, I was merely answering the point you chose to make. It's quite simple really. Go back and read the thread yourself if you really can't remember why you made the point. Although it makes it harder when most of your points have been deleted, granted, so I can see why you may be confused by your own drift.

I have no further interest in the argument you were trying to make - I don't believe that you spend 2k per month on your clients; and you have your reticence to explain and your abuse to blame for that. But you have made it plain you don't care about my opinion, so...

You are the one looking daft my dear.
Teachers spend so that they can provide a service to their clients, in the private sector this is standard practice and does not justify additional pension entitlements.
For what point is my financial contribution to my child's education relevant? I stated a fact. The point I was making is that in every sector individuals (including myself) make financial sacrifices in order to provide services and benefits, reap rewards - such as good ofstead reports...?
Teachers do it and so that justifies unreasonable pension expectations in the current climate? I think not.

So mnhq deleted my posts, so what? They are so jittery to offence seekers these days its silly and why I rarely post. In the old days you could state an opinion and not have the thought police on your case posting 'huggy bears' at the drop of a hat. I might have to check out netmums in future for some good old fashioned debate! Don't try to patronise me, you show yourself up.

For what point is my financial contribution to my child's education relevant?
I quizzed you on the 2k you spend on your clients, not what you spend on your son. The point that became relevant was when you brought it up on this thread. I didn't say it justifies pension expectations - I just asked you to explain how you spend 2k of your own money on clients.

So mnhq deleted my posts, so what? They are so jittery to offence seekers these days its silly and why I rarely post. In the old days you could state an opinion and not have the thought police on your case posting 'huggy bears' at the drop of a hat.

I've been here since 2005, and MN have never allowed personal attacks or deathwishes. I very much doubt that Netmums would support your style of debate either, but feel free to try them if you like.

Another vote for striking

Oh my giddy god. There must be something better on TV.

For what point is my financial contribution to my child's education relevant?
I quizzed you on the 2k you spend on your clients, not what you spend on your son. The point that became relevant was when you brought it up on this thread. I didn't say it justifies pension expectations - I just asked you to explain how you spend 2k of your own money on clients.

Why do I need to explain it? Its a fact, so you doubt it...and? Jesus Christ do you want receipts or something? You're like a dog with a bone. What is the relevance? Does everyone on mn have to present literary evidence to support their posts? How foolish and irrelevant.

Oh dear, death wishes? Get over yourself you silly thing.

I told you clearly that I had no interest in the point you were making, partly because it was such an outlandish claim, partly because you resorted to abuse when asked to elaborate and refused to explain. I also pointed out that my opinion didn't matter to you - that was an opportunity to leave it. You've chosen to continue - you are the dog with the bone.

Please stop pretending that the 2k referred to money you spent on your son - you clearly stated you spent it on your clients. The money you spend on your son was separate, and I haven't asked you about it.

You told me to suffocate - please don't attempt to pretend now that I am in some way over-sensitive in my distaste for your aggressive and absuive debating style.

I told you clearly that I had no interest in the point you were making, partly because it was such an outlandish claim, partly because you resorted to abuse when asked to elaborate and refused to explain. I also pointed out that my opinion didn't matter to you - that was an opportunity to leave it. You've chosen to continue - you are the dog with the bone.
I'm not though am I? I haven't scanned and linked to my receipts.
Because you are being silly and irrelevant

Please stop pretending that the 2k referred to money you spent on your son - you clearly stated you spent it on your clients. The money you spend on your son was separate, and I haven't asked you about it.
The monetary sacrifices generate my disposable income of which the majority is spent on my son. Yada yada yada. blah blah blah. You were saying?

You told me to suffocate - please don't attempt to pretend now that I am in some way over-sensitive in my distaste for your aggressive and absuive debating style.
LOL You stated you were holding your breath! I said 'carry on' and that is a death wish???? You silly drama queen!!!!

No I really am going to find something better to watch on TV and hope this thread gets back on track. Sorry all for the silly hijack! lol

You've missed Titanic now

Such a classic too. sigh.

LOL You stated you were holding your breath! I said 'carry on' and that is a death wish???? You silly drama queen!!!!

You didn't tell me to carry on. You told me to drop dead or suffocate. An objection to that post does not make me a drama queen. You have also had three aggressive posts towards mrz deleted. Your posting style is aggressive, childish and abusive - but that isn't just my opinion, hence your deletions.

Sorry Cain but 10% discount to your clients isn't spending £2K from your own pocket on your customers.

I don't know what you sell but lets imagine you are a used car salesperson giving your customer 10% discount is standard sales procedure and is deducted from the mark up to make the customer believe you are giving them a bargain ... If you were indeed contributing £2K of your own money you would be paying for their road tax and insurance (perhaps a full tank of fuel and a set of fluffy die) from YOUR bank account

"I don't know what you sell "

Of course you don't, so you make it up anyway. Is that SOP for the teaching profession? (hmm)

Everyone spends to accumulate and grow their business, its standard practice, banging on about the details of my own investment is irrelevant and none of your business.
All I want you to understand from that is that buying finger paint for the kids doesn't justify demands for a pension entitlement the country can't afford.

The introduction of the personal and stakeholder pension plans was to encourage people to save because the state pension fund isn't going to be enough as the demographic ages.

Contracts are subject to change.

I refer you back to my comment about insufficient funds.

NO not standard SOP but I made an exception just for you

and oddly enough the Nation Audit Office disagree with you regarding the sustainability and affordability of the TPS

But I'm not spending to accumulate or grow a business. There is no profit in my spending unlike yours. I do not expect to gain financially from spending my own money on my pupil's education unlike you who views giving discounts as a means to accrue future monetary reward.
I like many teachers am spending my money because there isn't public money available to buy resources to teach your child.

'Fivecandles my standpoint is that the cuts we are suffering are having the most impact where it will matter in the future, the govenment is not applying any kind of logic so yes they might reduce the defecit short term but the impact is going to affect our society long term detrementally.'

Totally agree. Although there IS a logic to what the Govt is doing. The cuts are ideological. They have made it clear that they want to reduce the state.

'For the teaching profession to focus on pensions is short sighted as there will be no state pensions going forward.'

You see, I see this as in conflict with your previous point. Teachers' pensions will have an impact in the long, short and medium term. Long term teachers will be living in poverty having devoted a lifetime to public service, they will also be forced to stay in the classroom until they're 68 having a negative impact on the education of our young and preventing younger teachers from entering the profession. In the shorter term morale will be affected and teachers will be discouraged from entering the profession. There is already evidence that this is happening. As for there being no money, once again THERE IS money. The pension scheme is self-sustaining. It is not morally right for the Govt to get teachers to contribute more purely so they can use that money for their own ends - i.e. bombing Libya or offsetting the deficit caused by bankers and not teachers.

'As a society we need to focus on spending money where it will generate income in the future'

I totally agree and it's very hard to think of any field more important in generating future income than the education of the workforce of the future.

'Expectations need to also.'

I think teachers accept that they need to do their bit. That is why we have accepted a pay freeze. That is why in most schools teachers are working more. In my place of work we are expected to teach an additional hour from September and we are facing all sorts of cuts.

But teachers are entitled to expect the pension that was agreed in 2006.

Do you think bankers' expectations have changed?

'I refer you back to my comment about insufficient funds.'

You're not listening. There ARE sufficient funds. The teachers' pension scheme is self sustaining.

I agree with Feenie, Cain. Your arguments don't make sense. And being patronising and unpleasant do not make them any better.

Its not self sustaining though is it? The treasury plug the gap.

The National Audit Office say it is ...

Money from the TPF is shoring up other public sector pensions

You've got it the wrong way round Cain in spite of the evidence. Our pensions are plugging the gap in the treasury. We paid our contributions so that we could have a decent retirement after a lifetime's public service. Not so the Govt could then get more money out of us to bomb Libya etc and then force us to stay in the classroom until we're 68 and then retire on less than we were promised.

The review suggests that it isn't, hence the proposed increase of contributions and retirement ages...much like the private sector where there is no comfy final salary scheme.

How many times? The Govt wants the extra money to use as it sees fit - not for the pensions. The teachers' pension scheme is self-sustaining.

A lot has happened in the last five years hasn't it? I too had a pension which promised to give me a comfy income when I retire...I'm going have to pay considerably more in over the coming years and I'm going to have to do it for longer.
Its not fair and its not my fault but I will still have to do it regardless.

Circumstances have changed and I have to deal with with. I think the public sector should too.