school uniform - yes or no? anyone know of studies / evidence on this please?

[Abelia]

I'm a Governor at a small primary school, very mixed intake in terms of family income and we were thinking of reviewing the school uniform - we currently have uniform but may get rid of it.

It was only a casual discussion in a sub-committee, but I think we may get ahead of ourselves in going ahead with asking parents / pupils, and wondered if anyone knows of any evidence or studies about uniform, costs, social divisions etc?

Alternatively if anyone has experience of their school going from uniform to none, or vice versa, why and how it worked, that would be really interesting to hear.

The brief argument is of course that on one hand, uniform costs money (although ours is standard supermarket fare, logo'd things are available but not compulsory). On the other hand, uniform is a good leveller. I can't work out which would be best.

I would hate for the uniform to be a worrying extra cost for parents (and it is very hard for parents to say they need help of course and I don't think we have any right to set out to ask that question of parents, even in confidence). On the other hand, does having your own clothes make it all the more competitive to wear the right stuff, and therefore even more tricky for those on low incomes to help their child feel comfortable at school?

Argh. Help!

Uniform!

I buy all mine 2nd hand from the school PTA, so really inexpensive, £1 for a dress or sweatshirt. It isn't as easily identifiable as being pre-owned as normal clothing so less likely to be an issue for teasing.

Also so much easier, I have 5 dresses, 5 sweatshirts, a weeks worth of clothes for £10, wash at the weekend and there it is ready for the week ahead with zero fuss.

I would be mightily pissed off if our school got rid, Dd would be a nightmare arguing over what to wear!

I'd be more likely to pick a school with a uniform over one that doesn't as I like uniform as a leveller. However now he's at school if they decided to get rid, I wouldn't move schools as that would be more disruptive than the change to uniform.

Mothermountaingoat - my children can dress themselves as well thanks.

It is important that uniform can be had from a variety of suppliers (including the very cheap ones, though I hope no children's uniforms are sewn in sweatshops by children who can't access school at all). The "cost" isn't a straight addition - if you children are in uniform for most of the day 190 days per year, then you need less other clothing. And I would hope a school coukd find a discreet way of assisting a family whonreallycouldn't afford it.

But back to OP: you need a) to consult parents (and if you can, incoming parents for September), and importantly b) give a huge lead time - the last thing anyone wants is a barrage of complaints along the lines of "But I'd have only bought one school sweatshirt if I'd known you'd be abandoning it at Christmas" - 2 or three terms?

No uniform. It does nothing to improve academic results and schools get away with murder, forcing parents to buy stuff from overpriced sole suppliers from whom they no doubt get a nice slice of the pie. My DD1 is forced to wear a 60% polyester poloshirt with the school logo on, and eczema flare-up season has just started - there is no wiggle room at all, and no common sense either.

Go for a dress code, but enforce it. Make it flexible, practical and affordable. It really isn't rocket science, countries all over Europe manage without uniforms and do better than the UK.

I went to a primary school with no uniform, and thought that was the norm at the time. I love the idea of the playground as a riot of colour and expression at that age. Would agree that the differences stand out regardless of uniform. It was a huge rite of passage to then go and buy the uniform when moving up to senior school...a real sense of growing up, things becoming more serious. Quite a good feeling really. Often feel sorry for my two that have been in uniform since age 4.

school uniform is a great social leveller, especialy if it's all readily available and easy enough to get from the supermarket, primark, M&S etc.

I live in New Zealand now. when we lived in the UK DS went to the local primary school and wore the normal uniform - polo shirt, sweatshirt, school trousers - wore it to death, but the uniform was what got worn to school and got messy.

Here in NZ, very few primary school have a uniform as a result I see some children wearing very inappropriate things to school - tiny shorts and little vest tops when it's tipping down with rain for some girls! Also, there is clear oneupmanship in who hs the coolest new style trainers, hoodies etc. teachers I know don't like it and have commented it does not help the classroom dynamic.

The end result is that DS's school is introducing a uniform this term. just a polo top with the school logo and dark shorts for boys and girls - plain and simple. DS's class teachger is very excited about it, she has taught at school before where there has been a uniform. her commnet to me was that when a school has a uniform you see the child's face easier in the class, you look for their face and not the clothes to pick them out. Her comment was that it also made for a calmer class.

I should say also that my DM is a school inspector and her view is the same - uniform is good for the group identity but also the indivual too. There is reaseach on it too, but without access to mum's stuff from the other side of the world I can't help further.

Also, as a parent uniform is so easy, no thought required on what needs sorting for DS to wear to school

A uniform is probably cheaper but personally I prefer no uniform. I have worked in a few primary schools when working as a supply, and by far the nicest to work in happened to be one with no uniform. It was in a very mixed area, was a huge school, and had an amazingly well followed ethos of tolerence/celebrating diversity etc. Bullying was certainly not an issue.
My DS starts school this September, he will have to wear the standard uniform.

Not sure about the argument 'school uniform is a social leveller'. Why do we want our kids to be all the same? Instead it's surely better to aknowledge and celebrate that people are different. I'm not talking necessarily about wealth, but maybe tastes/personalities etc.
At the school I mentioned before there was certainly no 'alternative uniform' where they all wore the same current trend. They all dressed in very individual styles, often quite eccentric, and nobody batted an eyelid.

uniform becuase i know if nothing else what needs washing and ready for Monday and cost wise it if far cheaper and saves arguments in the morning but mum/dad I want to wear .....

My children moved from a uniformed school (grey trousers/skirts and a logo'd poloshirt / sweatshirt) to no uniformed schools and having been OK with uniform (so long as it didn't involve a shirt and tie for infants) I'm now firmly on the other side.

At both non uniformed schools the vast majority of children wear jeans in the winter and shorts in the summer, with a t-shirt or hoody. I've not observed or heard of any competition or bullying focused on clothes, we have no issues with what they choose to wear, no problems with things being clean etc, and no weekend arguments either. As they wear jeans rather than cheap nylon trousers the clothes last a great deal longer (ds was always going throguh his knees) and I think the costs are fairly comparable. Plus they don't have to wear expensive school shoes.

Both schools had optional school kit, the US school had a t-shirt of the year (a fund raiser really) which they wore on school trips (or a t-shirt that colour) and their Canadian school has some sports stuff with the logo of the school team.

Of course the children do look like a group of individuals, rather than a neat pack, but for me that's a plus not a minus. I'd be very unhappy if we had to move back to uniform.

I would have thought children's personality would more likely shine through in a uniform, because you are not looking at their clothes. It must be a very dull child that needs clothes to express themselves. Primary children's clothes are not really expressing themselves though are they, as it is their parents who generally buy and choose their clothes.

Our school moved to uniform when dd was in y 6. no uniform was fab and not competitive at primary school.
Our new head brought in uniform autocratically. Some parents like it, some hate it, ALL the kids dislike uniform though.

FattyAcid it is not true that ALL kids dislike uniform - maybe because yours had to switch from their own clothes they disliked it? My DC and others (at different uniform-wearing schools) were so proud to get into their first uniform, and proud to be part of the school wearing it. DD and Ds have also told me that they like it because they don't have to think what to put on in the morning.

OP You need to ballot all the parents at the school.

I only have to see what the girls wear on non-uniform days to know that I LOVE dd's uniform! They dress very inappropriately, and dd is at primary! I don't want to see 8yr olds wearing hot pants & bra tops (I kid you not) everyday!

Dd's school uniform is cheap, but hard wearing & quite forgiving in terms of dirt/stain removal!

This week, dd was playing rough & ripped her shirt. $5. In the bin, no tears! If that was a casual shirt, it would have been at least $15 & I would have been very annoyed!

School clothes here are cheaper & very tough compared to casual clothes! There are rarely deals here, such as '5 shirts for $4' & if you want clothes to last the year, there is no point point buying cheap stuff. A years worth of casual clothes (for school) would cost me a bomb. On top of that we pay school fees, so it would make it very expensive learning all round!

What kids wear on a non uniform day is not generally what they would wear to school if there was never uniform!
Ok perhaps not 100% of kids prefer not to wear uniform at primary but the vast majority.
Kids in uniform really depresses me. It's so not necessary and most of Europe and the USA manage fine without it

I agree with fattyacid, non-uniform days cause many more issues than non-uniform all the time. On non-uniform days the children talk about what they are wearing days in advance, they wear their best clothes or clothes which display something about them which they want to show off e.g. a football strip.
Children who never wear uniform just wear normal day to day clothes, there is no competition IME.
Bruffin, obviously I agree that a child's personaility will shine through a school uniform, but clothing is definately a way for defining who you are. Even at primary age, (even my 2 year old!) a child likes to show their own sense of style (style in the loosest sense of the word in the case of my 2 year old who wanted to wear a t-shirt with a sparkly kitten on it everyday this week) through their clothing.
Also admit though that some children like the safety of a uniform- my ds can't wait to get his uniform for this September!
OP I would be very surprised if parents opted for no uniform, just like i would be surprised if parents at a non-uniform school opted to introduce one. People like what they know I think!

Joined mumsnet just to post on this thread! I feel passionately about uniform and this debate comes up time and time again at my sons school. I think uniform is something that schools should be disregarded if possible. I say 'if possible', as I do believe that if there is an issue in the school with behaviour management, then uniform can help form a stronger school identity which can overcome some of these issues. However, as one of the posters here has already mentioned, lots of 'outstanding' schools (with no behaviour management issues) are trying to drop the uniform and there is a good reason for this. Uniform can affect the behaviour of pupils. They are worn to create group identity (and visual identification of belonging to that group - i.e. uniform, can be a powerful thing)- children should behave well at school because it is the right thing to do as a member of a community and for themselves - not for allegiance to the school, for wearing a uniform or for any token economy systems (e.g. stickers - which are also usually disregarded in excellent schools). Do i want my child to behave well because he is wearing a uniform or because he can judge independently that it is the right thing to do? Secondly, many parents become concerned that children in primary schools will be bullied if they wear everyday clothes to school. In my experience, this is not at all the case. In fact, schools who adopt a no uniform policy usually have a deep rooted ethos of enabling children to value individuality which is something which all schools should be striving for. This is the case in my sons school. It has no beh management issues but is not an outstanding school - no uniform policy has been around for years there so perhaps it has positively effected behaviour? The school is regularly praised as having a very caring and respectful ethos (which the no uniform policy is central to - no bullying here and we are a mulitcultural, inner London school). In my experience, uniform can act to highlight differences since there arent as many to compare against. So things like trainers and bags suddenly become the focus of individuality and what makes us individuals. The things that are on the periphery of the debate include that perhaps some people believe that wearing a uniform means children learn more (Ive never found evidence of such a correlation, but, as I previously mentioned, I am aware of many outstanding schools ditching uniform which would suggest that uniform enforcement does not influence levels of achievement). I hear many parents say they think uniform looks smart. As a teacher who did work in a school with a uniform policy, standing at the front of an assembly hall you were faced with a pretty disgusting sight. Children would be covered in stains and breakfast, parents not being able to find a clean uniform jumper would just send their kids to school in soiled clothing. I cant ever remember the whole school looking 'smart' - it just looked like a bit of a mess. Also, uniform does look messy if its not consistent (e.g. jumpers from different retailers do look different) - so what is the point if the school doesnt look coherent anyway? Importantly, it takes up time from senior management to enforce a uniform policy (time which could be used much more efficiently doing other, more meaningful things). All in all, if I were a HT, I would be striving for my children to wear clothes that they wanted to wear, which reflected their individual identities and to foster a healthy ethos of respecting individuality and the idea of difference. Uniform goes deeper than the 'percieved' bullying and smartness. It affects behaviour, the reasons behind behaviour and the attitudes of young children which should not be taken lightly. Parents of any school need to be made aware of these implications before a decision can be made for their situation. Ive finished!!

What about different cultures and diverity?

Sorry - am new. That was in response to the poster who said that children cant express themselves through clothes bought by their parents. In KS2 I think many children do exert some influence ove the clothes bought for them and many choose what they want to wear out of those clothes bought for them on a daily basis.

Having had children in school without uniform (Germany) and with uniform (UK) I can say that uniforms are brilliant. Not only are they cheaper and much more hardwearing than fashion clothes, it also helps children to feel a sense of 'togertheness' as well as eliminating peer pressure (and cost to parents) of needing the latest fashion jeans or trainers.

Our school has iron-on badges from a company called ourschoolbadge.co.uk. They work out at about £1 each and we iron them onto ASDA jumpers and polos. Works a treat

There actually are studies on this but, if I remember correctly, they're US studies based on schools moving from no uniform > uniform. I don't have my book at home to check, unfortunately.

I DO remember that the introduction of uniforms was found to have a negative effect on attainment in those studies.

I'm a teacher and I hate uniforms. I spend half my life telling boys to tuck their shirts in when actually I do not give a monkey's arse how their shirts look. The ethos was better when I worked in a school with a lax uniform policy, but that's purely anecdotal and was affected by a lot of other factors too.

I often look at our more 'quirky', individual kids and think it's a shame that they have to dress like little clones all day. I always have do a little mental dance when one of the boys gets a mohawk or one of the girls dyes her hair pink, even though I have to look very disapproving :)

No uniform. I went to several different schools as a child (moved about a lot) and personally found that the kids at uniform schools were always far more fashioned and looks obsessed than the ones at non-uniform schools, and it was always clear anyway to those who cared whose parents had more money than others through things like nice bags, nice shoes, rooms of their own rather than sharing with siblings or whether they could afford ballet classes and riding classes and holidays.

I never felt the equalising aspect of uniform, and I was always on free school dinners and was not from a white British background, so I should have been the sort of child to benefit from feeling equalised - anyway, if that genuinely matters so much to us then we as adults should work to make our society more equal instead of pretending to our kids that wearing the same uniform somehow makes them the same.

The only argument in favour of uniform is that is that is makes life easier for parents.

My kids go to an enormous inner-city non uniform school with a very mixed intake (high level of ethnic minorities, high level of free school dinners, but also lots of children from professional middle-class backgrounds), it has a policy of sensible clothes (no heels on sandals/shoes, no silly/offensive slogans on T-shirts, that sort of thing). It is great, and I have never heard of any bullying on account of clothes.

We've gone from a uniform school to a non uniform school and I definitely prefer uniforms. Mainly because the kids all look scruffy, the older girls wear totally inappropriate clothes (low tops, short shorts that barely cover their backside)'. I spend more on clothes now than I did on uniforms.

The biggest issue for me is the lack of belonging anywhere. The kids turn up for team sports and look like the poor kids because they are not wearing a uniform.

I say stick to uniform even if it is just same colour clothes from asda telco ms etc

I hated uniform as a child (didn't have one at primary), but had to wear SKIRTS at secondary and our bus stop was freezing.
But as a parent of one fashion mad DD2 and one totally disinterested DD1 (yes you've got it, its the teenage one who doesn't care) I think its a jolly good idea.

But keep it simple and don't get in a tizzy about colours of socks, tights or exact style and colour of shoes. Seriously, black, grey or brown shoes that haven't got high heals or obvious huge logos really should do, who cares if they are a bit too like trainers or boots. DD1 finds getting anything that fits that doesn't fly very close to the rules a real pain.

AND only when every class is perfectly behaved, every lesson perfectly delivered and every persistent bully expelled should any teacher waste a second on the subject of ties or the tucking in of shirts.