Private school or move to area with 'better' state schools?

[queribus]

OK, probably been done to death, but indulge me, please.

Local (junior and secondary) schools aren't terribly good - results well below national average, some bad reputations, mediocre Ofsted.

DD currently in a very good infant school and due to go to a pretty poor junior school in 2012. We've looked a private schools which appear to be very good and I feel would be suit DD very well. The fees are eye-watering, but we could afford them although other stuff would have to go (we also have a DS who's 3 so not just one to consider).

Next town has very good schools - and correspondingly high house prices. We could move to catchment of some excellent schools but this would mean a fairly huge mortgage and moving from somewhere we really like. We'll also be mortgage free in our current house in about five years.

So options are:

1. stay where we are, go with local schools and hope for rapid, radical improvements

2. go private

3. move, taking on large mortgage, to access excellent state schools.

Any thoughts, experiences, guidance most welcome. I'm driving myself crazy going over all the options!

I would say go and look round the schools BEFORE you move into the area. I know a few people who have moved to be near Ofsted/League table great schools and been a bit taken back with reality. Ditto people who have been gutted that their kids have been allocated the satisfactory school round the corner which turned out to be fabulous for them.

poppytin a school that gets 67% A-C pass rate at GCSE with a non-academically selective intake is actually doing very well. I certainly wouldn't rule out this as a option for your dcs.

queribus I would visit the Junior school early in the Autumn term to find out more information as it is difficult to judge any school by just league tables. Ask how they cater for children with different abilities etc. and if they take children from more than one infants school whether children from your dds school continue to do well. It is possible that by the end of KS2 many families move out of the area for secondary school or go private and that this lowers the KS2 results. This certainly was the case at my dds school in the past but results at KS2 have improved significantly over the last few years as fewer families are now moving out of the area.

just spoke to a colleague of mine over lunch today whose two DDs attended selective schools which means taking bus then train every morning average 40-50 mins door to door and she said they just got to get used to it as being in London one must be used to travelling on public transport for up to an hour anyway. We work in the City and everybody commutes roughly that amount of time door to door (train journey alone about 30-40 mins, plus walking from home to station and station to office about 5-10 mins each way). So I guess the travelling is not particularly an issue for us. What I'm wondering is how an education at a surbubia local comprehensive would compare with that at a state-of-the-art London private school? I got a feeling that private schools teach manners while local comprehensive don't (correct me if I'm wrong). Plus high quality teachers, those with qualifications and experience in higher education, would give more academic inspiration to my DCs. What's your opinion? I've never been to school in this country but went to highly selective state schools on the other side of the world but given where we are grammers are not an option.

I've just got the prospectus for St Paul's Cathedral School. What struck me most was how hemmed in the school is because of it's location. No green space at all. I was interested as I work in the City and ds is interested in being a chorister. I was completely put off that ds probably wouldn't see grass or more than the odd tree whilst at school!

My 2 dds went to a highly selective private school (in top 5 of league tables). The extras were probably the same as for any state school ie music instrument lessons (but was out of school - so not really school extra); school lunch; school transport to and from school - this was expensive - a thousand or so a year each, i seem to remember). They went on one or two school trips (to the theatre/museums -cost about £25 including transport) and a 2-3 day trip to Belgium (can't remember the cost but would have been about £300 each - so expensive but not extortionate) Neither of my dc went on any other foreign trips because the demand was so great they were never picked or wen't in the right subject stream. School uniforms were very expensive but there was a thriving second hand uniform shop. All school books and stationary were provided by the school.

There were some super rich parents but most lived in bog standard semis and certainly didn't live a lavish lifestyle.

However banking on your dc obtaining a place at a really good, selective private school could lead to tears as competition is stiff and even if they are very bright, they may not perform well on the exam day (eg may be unwell).

Nevertheless good state schools are also exremely oversubscribed and for non selective ones you will probably have to practically live in the same road to get a chance of an offer.

Bearing in mind that universities are anxious to increase their intake of state school educated students you might be better off sending you dc to a reasonable state school and paying for a tutor if necessary. Alternatively you could move your dc to private school at the A level stage.

Had this problem many years ago - we live in an area which isn't blessed with good schools, so we went private outside our area.

Not that I ever regret doing it as my DS is very happy and doing well - but one downside is I have had drive half an hour every day (each way) doing the school run for the past 8 years now - but luckily enough 3 years ago I got a job in the next road to my son's school, so it's all worked out well.

Another negative I would mention is that my son's friends tend not to be local, so socials/parties/sleepovers etc all tend to be outside our area, again involving yet more driving around during the weekend, but all in all, I am very glad we made the decision to go private, it's a totally different world to the one we were brought up in when we were kids.

erebus Fri 06-May-11 12:36:17

"Okay, one school may have a Eng Bac pass rate of 80%, another 60%. This doesn't necessarily mean school 'a' is 'better' than school 'b'. What needs to be considered is whether one's own DCs are likely to fall within the 60 or 80%-"

Very wise words here by erebus.

do not envy you this decision, one of the hardest to make, I am struggling myself, so can only offer the advise of do the research, visit the schools, talk to the schools and children of both state and private before you make a decision.

just starting to consider this ourselves, main current concern is how the childrern will be affected. Right now, they want to stay with friends, and wonder how others that have done it found their children coped? Also, both my children are about average academically for a state school, how hard will it be for them to get upto the right grade?

I think that so much is down to the individual child and their parents.

I was at state primary with a boy who was a good friend of mine.

He went to the local state secondary (which did NOT have a good reputation at the time, but is now well regarded), and my parents made all kinds of sacrifices to get me to the local private school (which I think, looking back, was too pushy, but had an excellent reputation). He and I lost touch over the years.

My first day at Cambridge University, who should I see but my old friend from primary, also with a string of 'A's at A-level.

p.s. someone noted further up the thread that they weren't sure that state schools felt it was their remit to teach manners.

I think it varies a lot from school to school (my job involves visiting schools around the country, both state and private). Our local comp has children with outstandingly good manners, clearly very well drilled into them. A friend teaches there and said that she was very unnerved on her first day to have children thank her for teaching them at the end of the lesson.

We have had exactly the same decisions to make over the past couple of weeks. We payed off our mortgage a couple of years ago (through hard work, blood, sweat and tears) and now have a sizeable house on a large plot, done up how we want it, close to life-long friends and family and with lovely neighbours. On the flip side, there are pockets of deprivation only a stone's throw away, which tend to bring the acheivement level of the local state schools down. Sad but true.
I visited the local state school and the independent prep. There was a huge difference in factors such as manners, discipline, approach to learning and class sizes. The local state school had a class sizes 30 plus and the classes appeared unmanaged and chaotic.
We have a very bright DS and I feared he would be at a disadvantage in a school where the teachers were aiming to bring the less able up to scratch, and he would just be left to 'get on with it'. The local private prep offered a more intimate and personalised educational experience, where I felt my DS ability would be developed to the max.
We are not particularly high earners, but not having a mortgage offered us an opportunity to invest in our DS's academic future instead. As we have two children, the possibility of sustaning a private education long term may be near impossible, but we aim to do what we can whilst we can to give them a good grounding. Perhaps then, if we have to move to the state school later on, they will have a soild learning foundation.
We balanced this with moving to a better area, but taking into account a higher mortgage and moving costs, and the fear of becoming isolated, we felt we were better off staying put. We now feel that we are getting the best of both worlds, that being one of the security of having a roof over our heads, and the other having a place at a school we are proud our DS has a place at.
I've bought uniform already as the PTA second hand attire was fabulous and at a fraction of the cost.
It was my mum who clinched it for us by saying that, "you work most of your life to get the security of a happy home and a roof over your head". To lose your home because of the high costs involved if you moved , would be more devastatingi than your kids having to move school to the local comp, because on reflection, most kids will mix with others similar to themselves, who will be from the same motivated and aspirational background as yourselves. Surely thayt would ensure your kids do well anyway.
It's a tough choice but once you make your decision you'll be more positive, because it will be what's right for you and your family.
xxxx

SwitchedOn, I am presuming that when you were looking your DS was looking at reception entry?

We had the same dilemma at this age, could not get place at nearest state primary as so sought after, ended up only option was a really grim undersubscribed primary 6 miles away.

At that stage we went private, DD ended up at a top selective girls prep.

However, when considering senior schools it became clear we would only be able to keep both DCs at private by selling our house and moving into a small flat. But we really don't want to do that, we like living here, the house is part of our security for retirement etc.

So we decided to go with the local excellent girls comp. Lots of good feedback from neighbours, friends. DD has developed a great atttitude to learning at her prep and should easily gain a place in the express stream at the comp which will be full of girls with a similar hard working attitude.

Plus, it is within walking distance and free!

The decision was hard to take but I am sure DD will thrive and after working hard for many years we are just not prepared to throw away our financial security and spend our retirement in poverty just to chase the dubious advantages that private secondary may or may not bring to DD.

Some MNers will no doubt call me a selfish, bad mother but I think there have to be limits!

DD is no doubt in a very good position having had the grounding at prep and i cannot now see her losing that, even if the comp she was going to was very average.

I went to a below average comp myself but I gravitated towards others who wanted to work hard and consequently got a good education. I am sure DD will do this. And you are right, family background and encouragement is the most crucial factor in academic success.

The decision was hard to make, as DD loves her prep, but now it is made I feel so much happier. The release from constant financial stress is wonderful.

Dear CarrotsAreNotTheOnlyVegetables,

I was indeed talking about reception entry for my DS. I'm so happy to hear that your DD is doing well after you put her through prep. I believe you gave her incredible grounding for high school. I'm certain that by the time they reach senior level, a child's approach to learning has been ingrained.

Like you, we were merely offered a place at an undersubscribed primary where the majority of children only spoke English as a second language. I felt this would hold my 'very advanced young talker' back, and was fearful he wouldn't have friends he could socialise with.

We too are assuming that a private senior school is likely to be out of our financial reach, and I am totally 'with you' that it would be madness to throw away your security. I certainly don't think anyone could accuse you of being selfish...I can only suggest that most people would say you were wise.

Thank you so much for posting your personal experience in respect of your daughter. I am in no doubt that she will do extremely well and make you very proud, but thank you for convincing me further that we have made the right decision for now.

PS: enjoy booking lots of lovely holidays. I think you deserve it! xx

How we decided was comparing the home and the lifestyle we now have to that of living in a area with a better secondary school, in this case (we are mortgage free now) a house of this size, would cost us approx £300k Maybe more! I am not willing to down size to send them to another comp! That may sound shallow to some, but that is how I feel, I love our home, and we have worked hard to get it finished.

We have lovely neighbours, and all our friends are local, our only issue is we are not happy with the local comp. We did the Sums for 3 in private school, and also weighed up our friends to hand, plus the fact we have bsbysitters etc, and decided we would rather live mortgage free, with affordable council tax etc and lovely, lovely neighbours, who look out for us, and our children, who help out if I am stuck etc, than start afresh.

We don't feel that a better comprehensive is actually worth a crippling mortgage, where as our childrens education is important, and thier education will come cheaper than the cost of a mortgage. (and that is if we find a house we are happy with for the value we estimate, it may be more) we have completely gutted this house, and it is how we want it, if we moved we wouldn't be able to afford to do all that again.

Thankfully the school we have chosen is fantastic, our eldest is happy and thriving and our others will follow.

I mean £300k more than what our home is worth now, and not £300k in total.

Can you edit posts on here?.

And I apologise as I have just read previous posters who are in similar positions as us, I replied after reading just a few quick posts.

Thanks for your lovely post, SwitchedOnMum, it brought a tear to my eye!

I have spent such a long time agonising over this decision and I still have times where I ask myself if I have made a terrible mistake.

Your kind words have made me more comfortable that I have done the right thing and it will all work out OK.

We are both in the position of making the best decisions we can for our whole family in less than perfect situations.

All we can do is our best.

Good luck to you, I am sure your DS will have a very bright future with such a caring mum behind him.

Dear shortround and CarrotAreNotTheOnlyVegetables,
Let's congratulate ourselves then for giving our children the safety net of lovely (paid for/affordable) homes to live in, doing the best we can in respect of their education, and for being the sorts of parents who 'give a damn'!
Well done us, and good luck to our wonderful children for the future. It's a tough world out there, but I'm certain our educational choices have made life that little bit easier for them long term.
Lots of love and GCSE 'A' grades - hahaha,
Sarah xxx

I'll drink to that

Mind if I join in? If you have a true choice between paying or state, I think the most important things to think about are whether the school suits your child's temperament, and what the real ethos of the school is. Fellow pupils, perhaps more than teachers, make or break school life. If there's a culture where hard work and enjoyment of learning is aspired to, then they'll do fine. If the pupils despise learning or are obsessed with elitism and material wealth above education, then a bright child may flounder in either sector.

I went to a state school where the teaching was pretty good but the peer pressure to under-perform was massive. My DH went to a private school where academic success was put before everything else, to the cost of his ability to socialise. It would be petty to say these traits have damaged our lives but they've certainly made things more difficult than they would have been if we'd gone to schools which fostered a happy, sociable, work-hard, play-hard, supportive ethos. Those are the qualities I'm hunting for, state or private, and I'll make any life changes necessary to get my children in to such a school.

Thanks menagerie.
I think the factors you mention are crucial too. I've seen aquantainces of mine pass through private schools and come out without any social skill at all. Not much use in the career or relationship stakes.
That said, I'm guesing that every school is different and by visiting you'd know if it was right for your child. Only you as a parent can judge that, as you know your child the best.
For many of us on these threads, our children are at different stages of entry. I'm only at the primary stage for my son, but am of the opinion that my school choice now will affect dramatically his approach to learning later on.
I also think that most of us here are more priviledged/lucky than we actually think. Yes, the decisions we have to make are troublesome and stressful, but at least we are in positions where we can have some kind of choice. The most striking element is the realisation that all our kids have us parents who care deeply about their welfare, and have their best interests at heart no matter what. They'll all do better than most just based on that factor alone.
Much love to you all.
Sarah x

Hey CarrotsAreNotTheOnlyVegetables,
I see you're already indulging in your newly found resources now you're free of the school expenses. LOL. Wonderful!!! Your hard work definitely paid off. Enjoy your glass of vino. Hugs x x

Switched on mum,
True, parental care can help children through many school weaknesses. I hope so, at any rate, because right now we're banking on it!

I'm interested in what you say about starting early with the right atmosphere and pattern for learning laid down from the outset. Because we, erm, haven't. We went for the local village primary, with an idea of moving in private schooling if necessary for secondary. In many ways the school is wonderful. The children are happy and mix together right through the years. Although it's a huge school it has the feeling of a small, close knit community, hard to achieve, but impressive. There's a thriving social life, it's brimming with fantastically well run and well taught extra curricular clubs.

But the core teaching and leadership sucks. There is a huge emphasis on mediocrity - anyone aiming for more than national averages is seen as a pain and a friend's staggeringly gifted child - couldn't help himself, he knew how to read age 3 - left because they didn't even bother marking his homework, it was so far beyond what was required. I hate that attitude and our children know it, but am gritting my teeth with this school, bearing in mind the fantastic extra-curricular life it offers, as we are able to top up the core curriculum at home.

I'm a bit uneasy, deep down, that they've learned that school is a place to feel restless, and to be endured, until they get home to the real job of learning for fun. My hope is that as soon as they get to the right secondary they'll thrive. They are happy and do well enough but are never stretched, never praised for their inquisitive nature (it's been crushed on many occasions.) My DH reckons as they are generally settled there and happy, don't move them. As they are now well into juniors, I think the same. But when I read what you say it strikes a chord and makes me uneasy. I went to a fabulous primary and weak secondary.

We were in your position OP just over a year ago. My advice would be to forget which schools are state / private etc and look at each individual school and ask yourself, do I want my child going there? Will they e happy there? Will they thrive? These are the most important questions IMHO, and once you've decided that for each school then you can decide if you think they'll thrive a lot more at the private - if it's significantly more, then probably worth the fees. If not, then probably not and so on...

For us, we made the decision to move to a rural Market town where the local secondary school is outstanding, but where we have the option for grammar if we want to go down that route. For that we've had to increase the mortgage and decrease the size of our house. But I don't regret that for a minute, we love our new location, DD loves her new school because it emphasises the wider skills and not just a academic. Oh and yes, we have had letters home from the head teacher reminding all parents of the standards they expect at the dinner table too. DD is now very hot on that.