Private school or move to area with 'better' state schools?

[queribus]

OK, probably been done to death, but indulge me, please.

Local (junior and secondary) schools aren't terribly good - results well below national average, some bad reputations, mediocre Ofsted.

DD currently in a very good infant school and due to go to a pretty poor junior school in 2012. We've looked a private schools which appear to be very good and I feel would be suit DD very well. The fees are eye-watering, but we could afford them although other stuff would have to go (we also have a DS who's 3 so not just one to consider).

Next town has very good schools - and correspondingly high house prices. We could move to catchment of some excellent schools but this would mean a fairly huge mortgage and moving from somewhere we really like. We'll also be mortgage free in our current house in about five years.

So options are:

1. stay where we are, go with local schools and hope for rapid, radical improvements

2. go private

3. move, taking on large mortgage, to access excellent state schools.

Any thoughts, experiences, guidance most welcome. I'm driving myself crazy going over all the options!

There is no guarantee if you move that the catchment areas will stay the same. We've had changes to secondary school boundaries that are pretty far reaching. At least with the private school you know where you stand, assuming you can afford fees and extras.

we are in the process of moving to a new area with better state schools - ds1 is currently in private prep, but we can't afford to pay for him and his 2 much younger siblings to all go private long term so it's the only option.

however, as we are discovering, and as mollieo says, the state system is pretty much a lottery and you've got no guarantees of getting into the state school you want even if you're right on top of it, especially if it's a good one.

so if you can afford private, i'd stick with it... we would if it fees x3 for 13 years was financially feasible!

Your choice but 2 sets of school fees is a huge strain. There is another way, state school plus tutor and masses of home support.

Schools can change dramatically over the course of just a few days so moving would be a bit of unknown. Your local schools could improve, the next town over could go downhill.

You need to balance the cost of actually moving with the cost of any potential school fees - you might find you'd be better off financially with the private option.

few years not days.

Thanks for quick replies.

I'm keen on private option, and we could afford two sets of fees, but it will be a strain and we'll have to give up holidays etc. and cut back quite a bit.

DH much more keen on wait and see, or moving if we have to.

Also, DH is concerned that they won't necessarily have local friends and that we won't always have the cash for all the extras, so they'll be the odd ones out.

But, you're right, state schools can change and thnigs might improve.

Check what is the current radius of the catchment area for the state schools you'd be happy to send dc to. When i looked at the ones in the surburbs of london the best ones were mostly a 1 mile radius of the school as the crow flies which could increase or decrease year on year, also found out most of the classes in the good schools had 32 pupils(due to successful appeals etc). My dnephews school this year had a catchment radius of just 400m! as there were so many siblings (people had got 1st one in by moving into catchment then moved out for a better house). Also all the houses on sale in the current catchment you'll had to pay over the odds for so then I seriously started thinking about the private option, pay £50-100k less for a better house and pay for the school you think would most suit your dc with smaller class sizes.

It's been my experience that good schools in 'good' areas generally stay good. The advantage they have is involved, committed parents. Many will be in catchment because they have shelled out the cash to ensure their DC gets a place, selection by house-price if you like. The schools have that burden of accountability plus the advantage of a critical mass of 'school-ready' DCs. Poor discipline is, to my mind, the greatest indicator of school failure.

I am not suggesting the parents in a less-well off area do not care, ie the converse of the first paragraph is by no means necessarily true (before I get flamed).

Another option would be to rent out your house and rent a house as near as possible to the school you like best before admissions forms are due. Then move back once DC1 is in the school.

A good school doesn't always stay a good school. Our catchment school had a long held fab reputation when we moved in. It was still good by the time we had Ds five years later. Three years after that (and at the point we were starting to view schools) the head had retired, the new head couldn't cope and the school was in special measures. Only now (four years later) it is starting to regain it's good reputation.

Do your sums carefully. For us to move into the 'best' part of town with the best primary school was over the term of the mortgage actually going to be more than private school fees and we would be compromising in a very large way on the size of house and garden we have. We had to make this decision 5 years ago and I am really glad we choose the private option. Since then the head at the outstanding primary has left and the school has taken a huge dive and people are leaving in droves.

So much to consider.
First, can you afford to move? What sort of house would you get? How much longer would you be in debt?

Then remember that you still might not get the school you want. My friend jokes that she lives close enough to a good school for the footballs to land in her garden...and her DC still didn't get a place.

Private school does cost a lot. No doubt. And it gets worse as they get older. However, don't assume the extras and uniform etc are expensive. Some are, of course, but DS's school includes everything in the fees (including term time trips) and there is a very brisk trade in the second hand uniform shop and the passing on of unwanted stuff between parents is almost compulsory.

Many children's kits are very well laundered. Shirts and trousers come from Tescos.

This is long winded but I hope it helps.
We've recently moved 200 miles for my husbands work and there happened to be good state school locally. Ok I accept that we are lucky its a small very middle class market town with only one primary school and comp (rated as one of the best in the county). When we arrived we planned to continue to send my older son currently yr 9 to an independent school but so many raved about the local state school we decided to give it a go and he loves it (he has spent 8 yrs in private ed. 5 of those in one of the UK's top prep schools) and most worryingly now he is now doing better academically. We have given up everything (literally) to send him and his brother to private schools.
This is my advise:

1. not being able to afford the trips is a bit of an issue, my younger son wanted to go away with his prep school this summer holidays but one weeks hols £1300 (way outside of our budget) and although he understands he was disappointed that he could not go.

1. How much are you going to cut back? Have you factored in other things e.g. extras - we reckon another £1000 per term (ok we board and pay for outings etc.but no music lessons thank God and even in a day school there will be extras particularly as your children get older). The cost of living is going up food/fual/gas/insurance is getting more expensive what will happen if mortage rates rise? You have to also think about all those unexpected bills I put a whole tank of petrol in my diesel car and it cost me £200, dental bills, vets bills etc. all these things put a strain on you, your marriage, work life balance.
2. This I know is controversial but I believe it is only worth considering private ed. if you have a particularly gifted and able child my younger son has an IQ of 154 and this apparently means that he is one of 400 thus in an average school (1200 kids) there will only be 2 others like him as much as I tried I could see how it was going to work for him in a state school. So we've opted for him to go to this September to a highly selective independent school with similar boys but only after a lot of agonising. If you think your children may have anything like dyslexia we have found that this was infact better catered for in the state sector. My older son gets more help now than he ever did at the prep and all for free including a new ed.psych report.
3. As many will cheerfully testify independent schools however famous, whatever their position in league table and however glossy their brochures are are not always all their cracked up to be.

I look at my husband who has a good job earning way above the average wage but he looks tired, he works 50 - 60 hours a week, in a job that he hates all to pay for the school fees. This year we take the first family holiday for 8 years; camping because its all we can afford. As he frequently says only five years to go (my younger son is 13) and then he plans to down shift and persue a career in the work he origanally trained for and loves. I also work in a job I hate rather than persuing my desire to continue in academia. My advise move and seriously consider state ed.

I would move to the area with decent schools. When the children have finished at school you can move to a cheaper area and pay off the mortgage.

happy - thanks for taking the time to reply. Your story really touched me, actually, especially the bit about your DH. My DH earns a lot in a job which he quite likes and is very good at, but he had hoped to downsize a little when we've paid off the mortgage and not commute to London.

We had a long talk last night. There are grammar schools over the border, so we're thinking of moving that way and taking our chances with the 11+. And still considering just moving to the area with better schools, but more expensive housing. We've seen a few things we like, but the costs are high.

At the moment we have several foreign holidays a year, plus stuff like Center Parcs and day trips. DD does swimming, drama, singing lessons. All this would have to go.

Lifestyle versus education? Or not?

I guess for me there's also a question about what happens at the end of the 'process'. Not every child can go to Oxbridge and not everyone can be a banker/lawyer/brain surgeon. What do 'success' and 'failure' look like in relation to education? Is it worth taking on debt and putting a strain on many other aspects of your life to secure the 'best' education possible??

Not looking for answers, just musing, really

If you have grammar schools near you you could do what a lot at our school do. Send dcs to prep and then grammar. Fees at prep are half the cost of secondary. No prep at prep for 11+ but it gives a good grounding. I decided on the basis that if ds wasnt engaged in education in primary years it would be too late by the time he got to secondary.

We live in an area with good primary schools and a super selective grammar. The comps are not suitable- one is religious and the other has poor academic results. We could go private but the nearest ones are exam-factory sort of schools which are not right for our kids.

We have taken the decision to move to a completely new area where the comps are good and housing within our budget. The kids will be able to do after school activities that they want and won't have to be tutored to get into our local super selectives. (11 kids per place!!)

I agree with Happygardening who says it all very eloquently. We have done both state and private for our dcs and are now moving them all to state.

I think unless you can comfortably afford private school fees, it just isn't worth the sacrifices. State schools are fine, good etc and there is so much to be said for local friends and community. Plus I think it is difficult enough in the current economy without having to worry about school fees if your job is shaky.

Plus school fees are set to rise above inflation in the future. It just isn't worth scrimping and making huge sacfices for imo. (and ime).

how much would the extras be at private school? I'm looking at an independent school with fees which work out on average £1000 per month (total £12k for three terms per year) which I think would be affordable for us but wondering how much extras should be budget on a monthly basis? Appreciate any comments.

just re-read happygardening's post and saw extras of around £1000 per term. Any other figures?

I would allow 10% for extras. Check what the fees include - one may include lunch and some trips, others not. Also shouldl your child be appropriately gifted , a music scholarship for example, may well give free or discounted tuition and /or reduced fees.

I live five minute drive away from a state comprehensive which is rated Outstanding by Ofsted but its GCSE results are only average (67% obtaining 5 A-C GCSEs). It has fantastic sport facilities. The school is said to be over-subscribed. Am I being too fussy in having to look at private schools miles away from home?

Yes remember private schools generally obtain better results by selecting their children. At my older sons state school there are children with obvious learning difficulties e.g. Downs Synrome etc. My older son in the state comp is doing really well and is expected to get 11 GCSE's a's and B's and our results technically are only a little better than those you mentioned. We are not pushy parents by any stretch of the imagination but it seems to me if a child has any abilty at all state schools are keen to maximise it as much as independent schools because they too are watching league tables
One of the things my older son really values is being able to walk to school and having friends close by. My younger son who changes schools this year and will carry on boarding was offered a place at one of the top grammer schools in the country but we didn't take it because he could not do the journey without massive input from either of his parents; driving him to the nearest station 10 miles away or the school bus 15 miles away or the school 45 miles and we were unable to move closer because of my husbands job. I wasn't prepared to commit myself or my son to that type of travelling.

poppytin - important things to consider. Okay, one school may have a Eng Bac pass rate of 80%, another 60%. This doesn't necessarily mean school 'a' is 'better' than school 'b'. What needs to be considered is whether one's own DCs are likely to fall within the 60 or 80%- you have to consider the context of those results; what the value added score is of the school- a school that takes on 'below average' DCs yet turns out a 60% pass, indicated by a high VA score is actually doing better than the 80% school that starts with above average DCs, and adds no value.

OFSTEDs take into account all sorts of things, not just results, you have to read them carefully to make sure the high scores have been gained in the 'right' areas' like the standard of teaching, not necessarily only in the standard of paperwork-keeping!

FWIW my DSs go to an outstanding comp with very high GCSE reults- BUT I selected it (by buying a house in catchment!) because it is in leafy, middle class suburbia with few social problems and because, as well as academia, it has a strong vocational lean which will suit my less academic DS2 better.

Also want to add that catchment is not a guarantee. My friends moved int catchment for a v good primary and they and others have not got places...despite bieng in catchment.

My DD is in private...I thought we could do it by cutting bac but the reality was FAR harder than anticipated. Uniforms, extra activities which you think "Oh well we dont have to sign up for them all" but become's hard to refuse when your DC is saying "But all my friends are doing it!"

Were only still there because when we told them we were leaving due to finances, they gave us a massive bursary.

Just think about how much fees will affect life...will holidays still be possible?