How are faith schools funded?

[Rosebud05]

Does anyone know? Is it all through the church/synagogue/mosque etc or some through central government funding? Or a mixture of both?

Am I right in thinking that the teachers in faith schools don't have to hold the faith of the school?

Starlady - what is controversial about the London Oratory?. It seems to me to be a great school not just academically (particuarly in providing a decent education for kids from all walks of life across London) but is good at sport, music, drama etc. - actually good is not right outstanding is better.

It's Ebac percentage results were particuarly outstanding something like 69% from memory - which is amazing for a boys school (boys being supposed to be less good at foreign languages than girls).

If that's controversy let's have more of it I say in the state system.

At the local church school you get a mixture of races, not everyone is white and middle class and christian necessarily. It is very sought after and they take other faiths as a percentage. also this is a traditionally christian country so why shouldn't christians have a faith school. Why should christians be deprived of attending a school which upholds their values just because some people are atheists. I agree with Starlady and good on your husband.

Also my parents were both from poor working class backgrounds but both went to grammar schools. There was social mobility in the 50's/60's which may be lacking more now. My mum was in the year above her school year.

Zanzibarmum, you misunderstand me. I mean it seems to be controversial with people opposed to faith schools, and especially with people trying to bash politicians such as Clegg and Blair.
I was pointing out that far from not taking underpriveliged kids, the oratory certainly, in my husband's day anyway, sought them out, and give them places.
Although my husband lived a long way from Fulham, it took two from his RC primary, another boy who was also Asian.

Yes alemci - I went to a Catholic comprehensive, (grammars were gone by the time I went to school).

In my social circle this is how the social mobility went:

one friend's dad was a hospital porter, her mum a cleaner, she became a teacher. Another's dad was a carpenter (although unemployed in the 8os and on free schoolmeals). Another a kitchen worker in a homless centre (v.poor Irish family) she became an chemist. & there's loads more egs like this.

And what I love about my kids primary school is the amount of mixing you get with people who probably wouldnt usually socialise together - like the doctor mum who helped out Afro-carribean busdriver mum with a week's childcare when her childminder walked out.

I don't know, maybe other non-faith state schools are like this too? But from what I have seen other schools seem more divided?

"Basically, Pinkcusion, if there had been no Catholic schools, his life would have been walking round with a staffie and an attitude. Instead he got a degree, and was lucky enough to marry me "

My issue with this is that he was lucky his Mum was a Catholic - had his Mum been Asian the story would have been rather different - how is that fair?

Whether the most popular faith is Christian or not still not not make Religious discrimination acceptable - shall we allow rascism because we are majority white - shall we allow homosexual discrimination because we are majority hetro?

But as I said the schools accept other faiths other than christians. there are also very good faith schools for non christians in our area. Do you think it is only the christian faith which is discriminatory. I still think as this is a traditionally christian country and the church is historically linked to the state then why not. Would you rather GB became like communist russia. that would be great not.

I think Pinkcusion you had a bad experience in the catholic faith and so you are anti faith schools. Is that a fair comment

Not at all pinkcusion. In an ideal world, we would all have equal opportunity, I agree.

The point I'm making is, RC schools provide one route out of poverty and deprivation. I am curious as to why you are so keen to close up this route for others less fortunate than yourself.

Why is the system you have 'bought' into, ie paying for your child's education, and paying to segregate your child with only others who have rich parents, more morally acceptable to you that RC schools which are racially and economically inclusive?

BTW - you're right, my husbands mother was english. But his friend who went up to LO with him had two Asian parents - Sri Lankan.

Most Catholic schools in the US have financial aid for Catholic children, zanzibar .

Also, there are charter schools, which can be excellent. They are free and secular.

In reference to Alemci's comment. No surprised Pinkcushion is anti-Catholic. Most English are. The spirit of Cromwell is alive and kicking - especially on mumsnet.

Even Germaine Greer - when arguing for secular education on the telly the other day on the telly - admitted that anti-Catholicism is rife.

It is a very acceptable form of prejudice amongst people who consider themselves anti-racist and open-minded.

People admit anti-semitism exists - but we've had a Jewish PM (& yes, I know Disraeli was an anglican convert, but most anti-semites would count him as Jewish) . Never had an RC one since the civil war.

No RC presidents besides JFK either...isn't Blair Catholic?

Oh, that's recent. I see.

pinkcushion - your postings are becoming more and more bizarre. Have you been on the wine this evening?

Cheerfulyank - yes Charter schools exist but generally, you have to admit, that the US education system is mostly dreadful for poor inner city kids.

Starlady - you are right. I know you weren't saying the Oratory was in itself controversial; I am sorry that people might have negative views against it just as I am those opposed to Catholic schools in general. But my point was that is their problem - as your experience shows poor kids from poor immigrant families do have a social ladder in the provision of many Catholic schools (I know I did as child of immigrants). It is bizarre that anyone would want to knock a sector of the UK education system which, while not perfect, does still provide social mobility in a country where it has otherwise ground to a halt.

exactly! he had to wait till he left office. That's how much the Brits hate us candles (as I've been called before). Anyway, good evening ladies. No valium to hand. I shall have to go and find a glass of wine. God bless you all - you'll be in my prayers tonight

Yes, they certainly are zanzibar ! Dreadful. But I'm not sure that I understand the connection between that and religion...

Talk about paranoia - I have never mentioned by nationality - Starlady - you have decided I'm a "Brit" - have I stumbled into the beginnings of a N Irish sectarian debate?

I think all religions are a pile of nonsense, I don't limit my opinion to the RC church - that would be discriminatory!

zanzibarmum - It is bizarre that anyone would want to knock a sector of the UK education system which, while not perfect, does still provide social mobility in a country where it has otherwise ground to a halt.

I think the point that is being made is that social mobility should be an opportunity for all via education, not just those who hold or practice a faith.

Like pinkcushion, I'm not comfortable with the 'this is a Christian country' argument. It smacks of empire, anachronism and turning ones' back on anyone who isn't Christian.

The UK is a multi-faith (and non-faith) society and I'm genuinely not sure of the benefits of dividing communities along faith lines.

Pinkcusion - haven't decided you are a Brit. I simply am pointing out that within Britain there is real anti-catholicism. I never said you were British. I wasn't having a pop particularly at you personally.

Rosebud "I think the point that is being made is that social mobility should be an opportunity for all via education, not just those who hold or practice a faith."

But we DON'T have equality - not when private schools exist! Only choice for rich people...

BTW Starlady - you also assumed that I send my dcs to private school - I don't. I simply said that this is not me fighting for my own dcs right to choice of schooling, I have options - I was making a general point - I was saying that I do not envy those who can send their dcs to faith school. You can have a general debate without be plagued with self interest.

You said in reponse to a question from an another poster about whether I had a bad experience at a RC School (to answer the other poster - I didn't, my school was fine) "No surprised Pinkcushion is anti-Catholic. Most English are."

I never said I was English and I am not anti-catholic - I am anti faith school and anti religious discrimination - apologies if you can't tell the difference.

"That's how much the Brits hate us candles (as I've been called before)." I have never heard of the term candles - why would I use a derogatory comment like that? I don't use racially offensive language or a religiously offensive terms - I do not believe in that type of behaviour.

Again one last time - I have take issue with the existence of state sponsored faith schools and I also take issue with state sponsored religious discrimination through the admission code of faith schools.

I do not support the position in Britain where the Prime Minister can't be a practising Catholic - I find this completely unacceptable too. I believe religion is a private thing - that should have no connection with the state - I know I am swimming against the tide - I know it is part of the British constitution but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Interestingly is seems Britain is doing worse in social mobility that every other european nation - even France where they are very strict about secular schooling - maybe faith schools help the lucky select few, leaving the majority on the scrap heap.

OK Pinkcushion, as I said before I wasn't talking to you personally, just painting a picture on the kind of background on which this whole faithschools debate goes.

I know I'm not going to change your mind.

However, I hope my postings have shown to you and others who may have been following that the picture is far more nuanced than faith schools = privelige for the middle class and exclude ethnic minorities. That is patently not true for RC schools.

The UK has one of the most class-bound countries. I don't believe church schools are part of that problem - although clearly you do.

Maybe another thread can look at ways in which we can utilise the way faith schools help bring up the less advantaged in secular schools.

Just one last thing - would you be happy for their to be only state secular schools, and ALL faith and private closed down?

To me, that is the only way fair way.

I don't believe the state should be funding faith schools. I believe if you want a specialist type of schooling for your children you should have to pay to go private - that is the system that exists in both Australia and American among others so it's hardly radical.

But given that it currently does fund faith schools they should not be allowed to religiuosly discriminate.

I have no beef with the admissions criteria of independent schools - my taxes don't fund them, they are not considered community schools - if fact they are anything but.

Starlady - Looking at your posts it certainly looked like you were talking to me personally, if you say you weren't then fair enough.

I think the state should be funding faith schools particulary Anglican ones as that is our tradition and if it is old fashioned and an anachronism then so be it. GB has always been tolerant of other faiths such as Judaism, Hinduism so I don't think there is religious discrimination.

In the past I think people from other faiths did get into the local secondary church school which I have mentioned but now there is so much competition for places because GB has become over populated particularly in the SE.

If you went to another country with a different faith would you be offered a place in those particular schools or would you have to pay for a private school.

Perhaps christian families want their children to go to a christian school in GB. If they cannot afford school fees why should they lose out.

alemci, the difficulty I have with the 'tradition' argument is where does it stop?

Traditionally, the UK has fucked over quite a lot of the world with imperialism and colonialism - are those traditions okay? What about the tradition of calling people with SEN 'retards' and putting them in an institution? Is that tradition okay? Sending poor kids up chimneys? Signs saying 'no dogs or coloureds'? All okay to keep doing?

I do know several Jewish or Hindu people who wouldn't agree 'that GB has always been tolerant of other faiths'.

In relation to your point about Christian families wanting to send their kids to a Christian school; in my area there are local families who want to send their kids to a local school - regardless of faith - and the discrimination of faith schools make it very difficult for them to do that. Why should they lose out?

I think some of the imperialism and colonialism was of its time and there were some positives as well as negatives. It is fashionable to beat ourselves up about how bad we were as a nation. I wasn't around then and I am not going to feel bad about it. Other countries did the same sorts of things as well. I still feel strongly about this being historically a christian country and the churches did play a part in education.

I do take your point about non christians and local schools but the faith schools do have to take some non christians I believe.