How are faith schools funded?

[Rosebud05]

Does anyone know? Is it all through the church/synagogue/mosque etc or some through central government funding? Or a mixture of both?

Am I right in thinking that the teachers in faith schools don't have to hold the faith of the school?

I taught in a faith school (RC VA) and all of the children came from disadvantaged backgrounds and there was a huge level of SEN so certainly not elitist or discriminatory.

I do agree in some ways with some of your points Pincushion. Maybe it would be better if Christian people (myself included) focused on helping those who do not know Jesus rather than those who are already regular church goers. I suspose 'seeking the lost' rather than 'preaching to the converted'. But many children from church-going families do not yet know Jesus for themselves so it isn't as simple as this. Also the Church school I went to had a certain proportion of children from non-Christian families, these might be Muslim, Jewish, other faiths or no faith. In particular they made an effort to give places to children or lived very close by but were not from Christian families. Because the local community was mixed so were the children who recieved these places. There were children at my school who recieved free dinners so I'm assuming if you couldn't afford to pay for lots of extra things then that was fine.

In my area, it is very hard to get into a C of E school if you are practicing Anglican. Even my vicar has been unsuccessful and is sending his daughter to an independent school with Anglican ethos.

I think thats excellent news that some faith schools are not elistist. But my analysis of our local one is not inaccurate - Ofsted have said they are below average for free school meals and special needs and the number of children attending with a statement is very low - which is a hugely different picture to the non faith school in the area.

The cost of housing close to the school is incredibly high - I'd be surprised if they have any free school meals children - but this does help enormously with their fund raising.

The system is allowing our local faith school to select on wealth and ease of teaching - I think that's especially shameful for a faith school.

I'm curious about the 25-50% community place thing.

The 2 faith schools very near us (one C of E and one RC) criteria are SEN, parish dwellers and church goers, siblings of the above, other sibs etc etc with those of non-faith at the bottom of the criteria. As these schools are oversubscribed, there haven't been any admissions to those who don't practice religion for at least 2 years (didn't ask any further back than this).

What does this mean for community places?

Starlady - well said. People resent other children going to Catholic schools funded (10 per cent capital), organised and led by Catholics supported by a massive effort the church has made over 150 years training teachers. And
While in one breathe they say they want their child to go to a Catholic school in the next they are knocking them and saying they shouldn't exist in ,contemporary society' (whatever that means).

I don't want my child to go to an RC school - I really really don't. I want my child to go to a good school and if the only good school around for miles was RC and I couldn't afford private I'd be pretty pissed off.

As it happens we have options of non-faith schools and we can afford private but that is because we are in the lucky position of being able to buy ourselves out of difficulty - it could have been a lot different and in that cause we'd have to lie - like many other parent do about their faith - the system encourages dishonesty, is discriminatory and completely unfair.

We can't tell the faith kids in our town that they are not allowed to apply to any schools apart from the faith schools - they get more choice than we do - why is that fair?

It was me that used the term 'contemporary society'. I meant 'modern' ie post-industrial revolution.

I said that I struggle to see the place of faith schools, not that they shouldn't exist.

Rosebud: you are making even less sense with your clarification.

Pinkcushion: you too seem confused. You don't want your child to go to a faith school but if you didn't have any other options you's be 'p.... Off'' Eh?

Why don't we all talk about improving the non faith schools???

We have excellent non-faith schools - but my choice is still less that faith famililies. And while the results of the non faith schools are currently higher that the faith school - nothing gives us priority as non-faith families over faith families. The faith families are still in a priviledged position with regards to choice in using state funded services - they sway between schools based on results and reputation - faith only seems to matter when a school's reputation demands it.

It is foundamentally unfair to non faith families.

Contemporary ie modern ie post-industrial ie now that schools are not entirely run by churches as they were in pre-industrial ie mid c19 and earlier ie not contemporary times.

That better?

What am I confused about zanzibarmum?

And I'm not confused - just because my kids have access to a fantastic education because of where we choose to live or because our income is sufficient for us to comfortably pay for private education doesn't mean I think we're all right Jack to hell with the other kids who don't have the same opportunities - that is the attitude I often hear from faith families - we do well out of the faith schools screw everyone else!

Just read your thread
In our area the church schools are impossible to get into if you are non faith. Below is the admissions criteria for just one of them, others are similar. As they are over subscribed even practising christians don't get in, admissions never get past number 4. These schools are highly sought after & academic and leaves those of us who leave nearby with less choice, we have to go further for an inferior school. How is this fair?

Where there are more applications for places than the number of places available, places will be offered according to the following order of priority:

1. Catholic looked-after children.
2. Practising catholic families who will have a sibling in the school on 1 September 2011.
3. Practising catholics who are resident in the parish of X Church.
4. Practising catholics who are resident in neighbouring parishes of St X & X.
5. Other catholic children.
6. Other looked after children.
7. Catechumens and members of an eastern christian church.
8. Christians of other denominations whose parents wish for them to have a catholic education and whose application is supported by a minister of religion.
9. Children of other faiths whose parents wish for them to have a catholic education and whose application is supported by a religious leader.

10. Any other applicants.

Sounds like an...interesting system. :)

Here the public (free or state or whatever you call them) schools are secular. If you want your kid to go to a faith school you've got to pony up the cash. Or homeschool, which many families do who can't afford the faith schools.

DH and I have looked into an RC school for DS but haven't found one close enough. And then there's the matter of coming up with a few thousand more dollars a year...

Thanks for posting that Kipp.

Does that answer my question about community places? No non-church goers are admitted around here; does 'community' mean 'if there are any places left after we're worked through all the other admission criteria'?

I'm happy to be corrected, btw.

CheerfulYank, part of what makes me struggle to understand the place of faith schools in the UK is that countries like the US and France have secular education.

Families practice their faith at home, and there are fewer divisions between children along faith lines. This sort of makes sense to me.

It seems odd to me too, but then again all I've ever known is secular education. Well, we do say the Pledge, which has the word God in it, but the teachers go through this big thing about not saying it if you don't want to. :)

Rosebud and Cheerful Yank - It's just the way the US and France's educational systems and histories have developed.

I don't know about US, but I gather in Europe only the clotted cream (ie the very rich and thick) go to private schools. In Finland, private schools are actually illegal.

Why not do that, then we'll all be in the same situation?

But don't expect faith schools to go if this doesn't happen. What government would sanction pulling the plug on schools who are actually getting low-income kids good results, while letting the rich still take the advantages that their money brings them?

"What government would sanction pulling the plug on schools who are actually getting low-income kids good results"

Hopefully a Gov that believed that selection via parental faith was immoral and removed the right for school to select by religiously discriminating - hopefully a Gov that thought is was a better idea to try to improve educational standards for all low income kids not just the low income Christians.

I know someone on this thread suggested that most faith schools do offer community places, there still must be plenty that don't - or they are all in our area - I feel all faith schools should be forced to provide community places reagrdless of faith and if they don't they should have their funding removed.

I'm still confused about the 'community places' thing - is it 'community places' after places have been allocated for other criteria ie looked after, statemented, of this parish, of other parishes etc?

My children attended a local CofE Nursery a long time ago in another town - 50% of the places were allocated to community and 50% to church. You applied for either a community place or a church place - never both and from that you had to work your way down the Admissions criteria.

I think that's different to schools, then? The faith schools near here don't have any non-faith admissions, so there isn't a community waiting list as it were.

I don't think private schools should be illegal anymore than home educating should be. But I don't think faith schools should be taxpayer-funded either.

We actually used to have prayer in our schools, but it was thrown out in the...50's maybe? Madeleine Murray O'Hare (nasty woman by all accounts, but she did have a point IMO) got it tossed on the basis that it was unconstitutional.

Rosebud: it does vary between schools in terms of proportion of places, but for CofE schools it means (after looked after and SEN), 50% of places are prioritised on faith related criteria. 50% are allocated on community criteria (for my local school it's distance to school gates, like all in this LEA). It's usually at least 30% community, and I believe for the new CofE academies it is 100% community places.