How are faith schools funded?

[Rosebud05]

Does anyone know? Is it all through the church/synagogue/mosque etc or some through central government funding? Or a mixture of both?

Am I right in thinking that the teachers in faith schools don't have to hold the faith of the school?

It sounds like the criteria vary, depends where you live. In our area all places are taken first by catholics/CofE and as they are oversubscribed, you don't get a look in as a non church goer - there are no 50/50 or 70/30 community places, you are at the bottom of the queue as non believer. They are very much white middle class and definitely NOT catering to low income families. Many more drive to school than if it was local catchment based. The traffic is horrendous with huge 4x4's parking selfishly.

Cheerfulyank: do the math.

30 per cent of kids in Catholic schools are not Catholic.
Catholics are taxpayers - just as non Catholics are.
10 per cent of Catholic school capital costs are paid by the faith community.
Academic and other resuls of Catholic schools generally good.

Why would you abolish this financially efficient system for non Catholic taxpayers? Why would you throw away the educational benefits.

Is it only 10% of the capital costs - and does the church retain rights to the capital - so does the school building still belong to the church - even though the Gov pay 90% of cost towards extension and improvement - I bet many private schools would love that deal.

It depends on the age of the school - if it antedated the setting up of the state education system, the Church must have bought the land, erected the buildings and paid for everything until the 1940s. Since then, depending on whether VA or VC, the church would pay whatever proportion the Govt decreed for that type.

BTW, yes, the Church still owns the real estate and the buildings for all those schools which existed before the coming of the state school system.

My local faith school was built in the 1990's and the church owns the land and building meditrina

I spoke only of schools which antedated the founding of the state system, as that was the part of which I was sure.

I made no comment about the ownership of school buildings and land which post-dated that time (as I was aware of various initiatives over time, but had not been sure of uniform and inevitable church ownership), so am glad that mrz made that clarification.

Is that true, Pinkcushion? Public money pays 90% of extension and improvement (and of course training of the teachers etc) yet the building belongs to the church?

From what people have said, there seems to be differences in admission. Some faith schools do have reserved 'community places', for others, non-believers are the bottom of the pile meaning that those not connected to the church pay for the buildings/upkeep etc but can't access the education available.

Hang on a minute. Catholics are citizens too. Catholics pay taxes. Catholic children need educating.
Pinkcushion your real agenda seems to be no Catholic shools yet you implied earlier you's want to send your child to one if you didn't have an alternative.

There is a view in Catholic community that Catholic schools should retrench to just educating practising Catholics rather than anyone who is baptised. I don't share that view but at least then Catholics might get some peace from the abolitionists such as Pinkcusion.

It's a reasonable positiion to take - though not shared by any of the mainstream parties -but be honest about your agenda

I don't see anyone doubting that Catholics are citizens who pay taxes and need their children to be educated, zanzibarmum.

I'm not sure that pinkcushion is an abolitionist; her main issue seems to be the discrimination against atheist families within the current system which leaves some people in the position of having excellent local schools which their taxes maintain yet their kids can't access.

I think PC is talking about equality opportunity for all.

I think the faith schools should be tax funded particularly as most of the parents are probably tax payers and live in the local area so why not.

my children don't go to the local faith school as we probably go to the wrong type of church and are way down on the list but this has changed recently with some of the children getting in. However you do get a lot of people going to the local anglican church to get their children into the school and then they disappear once their child is in.

It is a good school but I don't think it is as wonderful as people think and I don't think christianity is pedalled that much there. They do take people from other faiths as well.

Another thing is that have you noticed that no one wants their children to go to other faith schools apart from christian ones or am I wrong?

How many other types of faith schools are there though?

There are some Jewish ones near us, but don't know of any others.

I think pinkcushion's point is that most parents are tax payers and live in the local area and it would be nice if there was parity of opportunity to good schools.

there are a few state funded muslim schools and even a couple of hindu ones but most are catholic or c of e.

www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/foi/disclosuresaboutschools/a0065446/maintained-faith-schools

a full list of the types and number of state funded faith schools by denomination

Thank you Rosebed - yes it is primarily the state sponsored discrimination I object to. I'd prefer my children not to go to a faith school - but if I was faced with the choice of a sink school versus a faith school - the faith school would be the preferred choice - but my kids wouldn't have the choice.

Parent's whose children who go to private schools are taxpayers too - should we not be funding private schools as well? Give the kids £5k a year towards their school fees.

Sorry meant Rosebud

I don't live in a grammar school area so i don't get that option and these are funded by the tax payer too.

Also there is a tax loophole that if exploited would cover £4k worth of school fees a year.

www.fundingeducation.co.uk/paying-private-school-fees.html

again unfair as i dont have that sort of money to put into a pension anyway.

well perhaps you have to look at why the non faith schools aren't so great in comparison. Also the parents of the kids in faith schools are tax payers too and the church schools have come out of a christian heritage in Great Britain.

Yes parents with kids in Private schools are tax payers so I wouldn't complain if they did get some tax relief and also they are freeing up a place for someone in a state school.

Why does everything good like grammar and faith schools be dragged down just because people cannot get there children into them. My kids go to neither but I still think there is too much politics of envy around.

The more you say pinkcushion the more it seems you are an abolitionist. Of course tax payers money shouldn't fund private schools - it doesn't fund private Catholic schools - but state Catholic schools are are state schools just as grammar schools are also not available to everyone.

Of course, I sympathise with those whose non faith school options are poor but it seems to me that one doesn't address that issue by attacking state Catholic schools or denying them funding.

The admissions process is unfair in lots of ways - some have the choice of more than one excellent school, others have a poor or non-existent choice. But surely the solution is to address the cause not the symptom. That is, create more excellent schools rather than abolish or change the ethos of the existing good schools.

I just think that state schools shouldn't be affiliated with any religion. And FWIW, I am religious.

CheerfulYank - perfectly reasonable view but when viewed in the context of the dire state of the US education system for inner city kids it is neither relevant or a helpful guide to us in the UK.

If you did what you are suggesting I guess the Catholic schools would simple charge - as they do in the US depriving access to perhaps those who might most benefit: recent immigrants from Africa, Poland, etc other Catholic countries.

At the very least religious discrimination associated with schooling selection should be abolished. State funding should be removed from those schools who continue to discriminate.

I'd happily see them abolished too - but I don't think that's achievable in the short term.

So I was right Pinkcushion - you do want faith schools abolished, though presumably after your child has gone there (in the event of you not having a better alternative). Full marks for honesty, if not intellectual consistency.
Perhaps some Jesuitical training would have done you some good.

I have to limit my use of mumsnet, as it tends to leave me craving a valium. But I see this one is still rumbling.

As I said before pinkcusion, if we abolish faith schools, we abolish them all - private and grammer the whole lot.

What we will get in place, is this: posh areas with great schools. And terrible areas with terrible schools. How is this fair?

At least SOME disadvantaged children get a chance here.

Pinkcusion, here is a very personal example (which will make me very identifiable!)

My husband grew up on one of the shittiest council estates in London, his Asian father didn't speak English well, and worked in a chip shop (worked note, not owned) and his mother died when he was nine. He got to go to the very controversial London Oratory. Which everyone seems to think is private but is actually state. His mother, a tea lady, had been a Catholic.

Basically, Pinkcusion, if there had been no Catholic schools, his life would have been walking round with a staffie and an attitude. Instead he got a degree, and was lucky enough to marry me

I did attend a Catholic Grammar School - I don't want my dcs to attend a faith school - I don't need them to attend a faith school, we have very good non-faith school options but just because I have good options for my dcs doesn't mean I don't support others in ther fight against discrimination.

I may be ethnically white but I don't support the BNP, I oppose rascism and in the same vein, I oppose religious discrimination.