Parents to blame for unruly children

[speedymama]

I totally agree with this .

My DT are only 19 months old but I am responsible for the way they develop. It is my responsibility to discipline them, teach them right from wrong, to have respect for authority figures,teach them that every action has consequences, teach them that if they want respect, they have to show respect and teach them that in life, one has responsibilities, not just rights.

I have friends and family who are teachers and in their opinion,it is the feckless parents of unruly children who are the cause of so much angst. Too many parents think that their darlings can do what they like without facing up to the consequences and this is undermining the authority in schools. I would also like to add, that in my opinion, too many do-gooders have undermined the role of parents in disciplining their off-spring and are therefore partly responsible for the degeneration in children's behaviour at school because kids know that teachers can do very little to discipline them.

Right, that's me off my soapbox. Must go and tend to my chores now that DTs are bed.

Sorry, this is the link this

I agree that as parents we are responsible for our children, and have a huge influence on their behaviour. But our children also bring their own characteristics to the table, and the school's culture and individual teacher's styles also play a part. I note that this is a survey of teachers, and I can't say I am surprised that "lack of consistent school policy" or an "unimaginative curriculum" would be as appealing to tick as "it's all the parent's fault". Not saying that it may not be true, but it's hardly an unbiased survey is it!

Exactly Nooka.

There are masses of parents from hell out there, but the majority are not - they want to co-operate with schools and see their children properly educated and they understand that to acheive that, they have to back schools most of the time, even when they believe the school to be in the wrong. They also don't want their children to get away with bad behaviour at school, because then they'll bring it home with them, won't they - how many parents do you know who want unruly, disobedient and unpleasant children in their homes? I simply don't believe that the majority do and I don't think it's very helpful to pretend that the majority of school's problems are because of bad parenting. I think you only need to look at the transformation which can be acheived by schools when new heads come in with the same pupils but different behaviour rules and hey, guess what, real sanctions, to see that it's far too simplistic to just say that parents are to blame.

Good parents can have very badly behaved children. Chaotic, inconsistant, disruptive parents almost always have badly behaved children.

It is true that schools need to have consistant policies on bahvaiour, but in fact schools can do nothing unless parents support them. So, for example , I can give a detention to an unruly child, but parents can stop them from attending, cutting of my control and sending the child a clear message that they can do what they like and mum and dad will support them.

And with some kids you could take them to disneyland and they would still tell you it was 'Fucking boring and crap'.

Teachers have their role, but if a child arrives with few ideas on what constitutes reasonable behavior there is sadly little schools can do.

Caligula, it is interesting the point you make about 'how many parents what disobedient, disruptive children'.

I had a very interesting chat about this with our deputy head. She said that in children who ended up permanently excluded the vast majority of parents refused to support the school and maintained that their children were well behaved, because they behaved well at home.
As the child's behavoir got worse, they started to act out at home as well as in school, by which time the parents were begging the school to 'do something'. At which time it was far harder to cope with the childre's behaviour and turn it around. One case I knew of, a child was contantly supported by parents who denied all bad behaviour until the child spent a night in the cells for solicitation.

I find this a difficult one. Me and my two sisters have always been fairly well-behaved, good at school etc.

My younger brother is a totally different case, something which my parents will readily admit. I won't go into detail but he has been expelled and isn't doing too well at the school he is currently at. He does have his problems learning wise, severe dyslexia and so on.

I believe my parents did not know how to disipline him when he first started acting up, having only had 3 'good girls' before him. They would punish but often not see it through and so on.

But they have tried and tried and tried....

Fully agree that even the best of parents can have difficult children. But 'bad' parents almost always have difficult children.

Interesting about the children behaving badly at school first and then acting badly at home. Which begs the question, whether the school undermined strong parental boundaries by having a lower standard of behaviour and weaker consequences than those of home, or whether it was the other way around and the standard of behaviour at home was so low, that the parents didn't actually notice that the kid was out of control until they were so beyond the pale that their behaviour even started to get on their parent's nerves.

I've just been watching Little Angels and it has occurred to me that an awful lot of trouble would be saved if parents were offered free, convenient, universal and non-stigmatising parenting classes from the off.

Possibly a bit of both I would have though Caligula. Poor schools, those in difficulties and having lots of badly behaved kids might well be setting the bar too low when it comes to expected standards. But I think that you are riht in that some parents can ignore poor behavior until it comes to breaking point.

So, for example the mother of the child who was arrested couldn't undertstand school complains about constant swearing, as that wasn't a probelm for her at home.

Agree fully about support at an early stage, but the probelm being getting the parents to accept that the child does have a problem and that something can be done about it.

Caligula - a possible business idea?
(You always seem so sensible, and grounded!!)

speedmama - quite a rant there!

IMHO..Kids/schools/parents are no longer black and white issues (as they used to be)
and yes it's so easy to be that Daily Mail commentator (who, OF COURSE, is doing it so right - and everyone else has it wrong... "feckless parents of unruly children'- classic DM!)

but for every parent who is 'feckless'(??) there is another who isn't.. and who has produced a child who may be deemed 'unruly'....

so i spose my point (if anyone is reading this far) is...

Don't ALWAYS blame the parents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And don't always believe the kids!!!!!!!!

Just been to a very interesting child protection conference which was all about the consequences of poor parenting on vulnerable children. Very interesting, in particular about why some parents have problems getting it right, and how much that is related to receiving poor parenting in their turn. Lots of stuff about attachment, but also on the interaction between the resilience of children and their environment.

I regularly encounter a mum with two children in the behavioural unit at ds's school. You can clearly see that parenting is an issue (lots of shouting and swearing), but also that the mum almost certainly has behavioural (and probably learning) difficulties. That doesn't make it a more pleasant experience to share the bus stop with her and her family, and I would suspect that she may be very difficult for the school, but you have to bear it in mind. I'm not sure how many people actively choose to be "feckless", and how many just end up that way.

I have recently had a v bad parents evening with dd2. She has apparently been consistently naughty & disrespectful at school and is being v disruptive in class. I have tried to back the school all ways (she's currently grounded 'til 1/2 term) BUT she is NOT badly behaved at home. We have always taught that respect for others is a given, good manners are non-negotiable & you should always try your hardest at whatever you do. DD2 has a couple of external groups (gym etc) and goes to holiday club occassionally in the holidays. She is never badly behaved there. I have not disagreed with the school, if they say she is behaving badly then she probably is, but I am at a loss to know what to do when the behaviour at home is fine. I have repeatedly suggested that she is bored & under-performing, but teachers say she is not underperforming at all, just disruptive. Surely if she can produce work to an acceptable standard (& its a high achieving school) whilst still being disruptive, she should be able to produce much more if she behaved herself - suggesting she is possibly bored? I do think in a lot of cases, behaviour at school is mirrored at home, scholl thinks it's a problem but parents don't, but it is simplistic to say that is true in all cases.
BTW when my children were pre-schoolers I would probably have blamed it all on the parents as well, things change a lot as they get older. Also, we have no problems at all with dd1 at school, but she is the one most likely to 'act out' at home. Friends & neighbours have commented on how well-behaved and polite they are, so how come dd2 isn't at school? If anyone has any answers I'm open to suggestions.

my children although not academically inclined (well the boys anyway) always always got "well behaved" "goodmannered" "always helpful" "pleasure to have in my class" and as a parent i clung onto those bottom of the barrell comments thats why i remember them - however they then went to secondary school. its gone tits up

and its amazing what part peer pressure has to play. its vitally more important for my DD to be seen as popular than it is for her to behave

my ds lacking in social stature has opted for class clown for attention and to stave off trouble

and my eldest - i cant tell you how much my cup runeth over - but hes 15 nearly 16 and well basically hes a shit. I resoundly lay the blame of his behaviour at school environment and peer pressure

although i can instill good manners respect for authority, work ethic, go to church, dont answer back, no swearing, no racism, sexism, gay derrogatory humour, chores, bedtime, homework, iron your own uniform, help with the house.

i cant do it when they are at school can i?

and i think it rather naive to think that any child will not submit to peer pressure whilst at school.

am sick to the back teeth of mum and dad bashing - work hard, study hard, bring my kids up the best way i bleedin well can and still STILL i am to blame for something which is clearly not just my problem.

really f8cks me off

god am on one

and sorry martian bishop please dont hate me i love you your my mnet idol - arse licking out of the way.

i think that class sizes school resources and the aptitude of teachers to teach with interest and vigour and life plays an important part. teaching isn't a job it truly is a vocation and one i could not do. i understand teachers are bogged down and pissed off and working in a system that is not only failing our children but failing them.

and to think that children should sit quietly whilst teacher teaches - is IMHO naive. the world has changed and teaching methods need to keep up and again IME i rarely find that this happens.

i ask the school to help me when they call me in becusae of an incident - they say yes of course MRs custardo we will.

for instance, my youngest son is dire, dire at school work, everynight i ask homework? no they tell me - let me see your Hw diary. i see it - i cant read it - whats worse is HE cant read it - they know he cant keep up writing off the board -- they give him 2 mins at the end of a lesson to copy it - he cant so he ends up copying half of it - he doesnt understand what hes written its so dire

next lesson he acts the clown -RATHER being seen as being sent to detention for being a pillock than being sent to detention for being unable to do his homework.

help me i ask - give him time - get teach to write it in for him, print it off - for fucks sake e-mail it me - send me smoke signals ANYTHING
we will - they tell me - they dont they are too busy - they cant give one kid attention when there are 30 - 35 vying for it in class

its f7cking shameful

My children were much better behaved, more outgoing, chatty and otherwise pleasant while being taught at home. There are so many silly rules at school and children are treated unfairly. Dd today had a supply teacher. A new girl (1st day) was told off by her a few times for not knowing rules. When the others said it was her first day, supply refused to believe them, thinking it was a wind up! And this is Y5!
Travelling library comes to school. Librarian is old bag anyway. Y5 can't get out HP as it is a "teenage" book - left with Jeremy Strong (fun but younger. Kids have no rights in this country. I'd be stroppy if I was treated like my kids at school.

Interestingly, my students debated this in class today - and they felt that it is the reponsibility of parents to instill good behaviour. Most of them argued that they wouldn't dare misbehave in school cause of the poo they'd be in at home... they also recognised that its not the teachers' job to take on the parental responsibility of bringing children up to have manners, be well behaved etc. They also thought that the children who did misbehave often came from families where the parents were no so supportive of school. They also said that throughout school they were often fed up of those who ruined it for them.

Obviously lots of generalistaions going on there, but that's what my 6th formers thought - very interesting it was too!!!

Yes agree parents responsible.

However I think the erosion of teachers powers and reduction in discipline that is permitted in schools exacerbates the problem.

Children/teenagers have no respect at all for adults now as they have no 'fear'.

how am i responsible for my childrens behaviour at school when they dont behave like that at home - because of the values we as parents have instilled in them.

it was interesting to read the quote in the article that communication between parents and school is central

what that really means is they want to tell you off as a parent but cannot impliment structures to facilitate the better learning of one individual child

I'll have another go at this at the end of the school day when I have got a bit of time.

Soem general point. No teacgers would disagree custy that we need to put in procedures to help kids having probelms, smaller classes for them would be an excellent start.

Assistance for parents who have poor parenting skills, often because of their own upbringing.

I have yet to see a teacher expectkids to sit still for and hour as we were, but some of these kids will not sit and work for 5 minutes....not talking adhd here, just normal kids who can't be arsed.

There are good parenst who have difficulties and some parenst who make no attempt to dicipline their kids. I have taught children who's parens have simply never said no to them, and they can't cope in school when a teacger does.

While me must help these kids we have ti have a realistic goal, that of making some of these kids employable. Because if they act in work as they do in school tyhey will get sacked within the week.

Now off to get showered and a day at the chalk face. Back this afternoon for more pontificating

Could not believ Tony Blair on the news last night - with his 'get tough on anti-social behaviour' bit, and extra policing - going slightly off topic!

He is not dealing with the actual problem imo, just the results of underage binge drinking, 24 hour licencing laws, and going right back to parenting responsibilites - poor diet and lack of Efa's MUST be a major cause of the problems with anti-socical behaviour?

Right, at the end of another working day a few thoughts.

I'm probably going to get flamed to hell and back for this one, but what the hell

First off, not all parents are mumnetters. Everyone here has a active interest in their children....we may all have different styles of parenting but we all care enough about the concept of parenthood to sit on here at all hours twittering on about the subject .

The hard reality is that there are small core of parents out there that don't give a shit about their kids. They don't even dress them properly or look after their health, let alone care about their education and development. There are rare but exisit. I have taught their kids who are almost without exception awful. They have no standards of behaviour because they have simply never been taught any. Now before I'm lynched, I have the greatest sympathy for these kids, and also their parent s that often had the same crappy childhood themselves. These parents and kids need help, fast, and unasked for. In fact they should have compulsory help and support, compulsory because they most often don't understand that they need it. But for whatever reasons these parent are responsible for their kids behaviour.

Then there are the patent who undoubtedly do care, but find it very hard to do so in a consistent productive way. These are the parent who can't stand to upset their kids by disciplining them. You see these parents on the super nanny programs. They want to be their child's friend and can't do the hard job of teaching them to behave. They don't do this because they are bad or wicked, but the bottom line is that the kids don't know how to behave.

Then there are the very, very nice parents who mistake a bus for a taxi. They get on the bus and then expect it to take them wherever they want, even if it isn't on the route. They do this with the best of intentions, they know that a taxi is more efficient and will get then where they need to be ASAP. They will berate the bus driver and insist that he becomes a taxi driver.....Joke aside this is what happens with lots of parents they know what is best for their child (I'm not being snide, they really do) and they expect me to deliver that, forgetting that I am not their child's personal tutor, I also teach the other 27 kids in the class. Now, much as I will agree with what they want for their child, with the best will in the world, I can't provide it. I can't give their child 1 on 1 teaching, it isn't possible, for that you have to pay a tutor or home ed. No secretary of state will tell you, but I will.... I see the flames arriving.

What I will do is be the best bus driver I can, but I can't change into a taxi driver. And if you want to argue that we should have taxis for all, I'll agree with you, but at the moment we don't have that, so please don't blame me, I'm just the bus driver.

I am the teacher that people complain about on MN. I am the teacher that insists on homework done on time, silence in the lesson when I am talking, I'm the one that give detentions when the kids don't listen and misbehave. I'm the one that people so often think is totally unreasonable, and guess what, you have to be this way with the younger kids or you have a riot on your hands. I cannot let kids have free expression, that can't happen in the bus, only when I say so. I do my best, but that is the way it is. Later on I'm the teacher that helps the kids to get good results, because I'm the horrible teacher earlier on. And while I'm teaching them to listen, and be patient, and wait their turn, share, work at things they find dull, I'm giving them invaluable life skills.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect kids to behave in class. It isn't unreasonable to expect kids to listen for 5 minutes so they can understand what to do next (if they have no SEN). It isn't unreasonable to have high standards. We should all have them, these kids from dysfunctional families most of all.

It is true that not all 'bad' kids are that way because of the parents. Some are bad because of school, some because of their friends, some are ill and some are just plain bad. But in the end I get kids for a maximum of 2 hours and 20 minutes a week. The effect of the parents far outweighs my influence on them. If parents can't or wouldn't discipline their kids and then prevent me from doing so, they cannot blame me when the shit starts to hit the fan.

Fab post MB.

Puts hand together and gives mb a standing ovation great post