Parents to blame for unruly children

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I totally agree with this .

My DT are only 19 months old but I am responsible for the way they develop. It is my responsibility to discipline them, teach them right from wrong, to have respect for authority figures,teach them that every action has consequences, teach them that if they want respect, they have to show respect and teach them that in life, one has responsibilities, not just rights.

I have friends and family who are teachers and in their opinion,it is the feckless parents of unruly children who are the cause of so much angst. Too many parents think that their darlings can do what they like without facing up to the consequences and this is undermining the authority in schools. I would also like to add, that in my opinion, too many do-gooders have undermined the role of parents in disciplining their off-spring and are therefore partly responsible for the degeneration in children's behaviour at school because kids know that teachers can do very little to discipline them.

Right, that's me off my soapbox. Must go and tend to my chores now that DTs are bed.

Peer pressure is a vital factor. For every 'bad' kid there are 5 that are capable of being naughty and easily led....this is more often boys in my experince when it comes to sillyness in the classroom.

This is why we need to sort out the 'bad' kid asap. The 'bad' parent who stops us doing this is throwing petrol on the flames becuaes that kid starts to think they are bomb proof and it rubs off on the rest.

We often cope with these kids by putting them in a top set class who are not interested in messing about....peer pressure in reverse if you like. I have seen kids go up from a grade d to a grade b in these cases.

We need to be able to isolate 'bad' kids swiftly before thet get a chance to poiison the rest of the class.

One thing is true tho, schools and parent can do everything right and kids can still go off the rails...it is the nature of the 'beast' bless 'em.

bringback the electric chair i say!

was that just at my school?

Martianbishop - wanted to applaud your fantastic 'bus driver' post. As a fellow sec teacher (and ex Head of Year) I couldn't agree more.
(Are you hmb BTW?)

I am also a strict-ish teacher who sets detentions for missing h/w, will not tolerate rudeness (To me, support staff or other pupils) etc. As I once advised a friend starting out as a teacher, You can always become 'nicer'; it is much harder to wrest back ground once they've decided you are a soft touch.Pupils have to hate you before they love you.

The poorly behaved pupils I dealt with when HoY often (though not always) came from households where discipline was inadequate for one reason or another. This was almost exclusively the case for the hard-core offenders whom I saw again and again.

Schools DO have a real responsibility for instilling good behaviour in pupils. But so do parents. Not a daily mail comment, just common sense.

I have to say that it terrifies me that my bright, confident, self-willed 6 y.o. son might become a 'bad boy', despite my huge efforts to keep him on the rails.

I seem to spend so much of my time pointing out that 'the grown-ups are in charge' 'you must do as you are asked' and 'rules apply to you just as much as everyone else'.

I don't think his behaviour at school is particularly bad, but he does seem to take delight if he's managed to 'buck the system' in some way.

Aaah don't worry, Easy, it probably won't be your ds who causes difficulty in the classes. We teachers can usually pinpoint the ones who are going to be trouble within a week of starting school.

Martinbishop is so much more elequent than me on the subject, but as far as I can tell, it's about consequences. I work in FE, and by the time students attend college they are post 16, therefore it is not beholden on us as a educational institution to keep the students on(though there are consequences in terms of funding, but that's a whole other subject). When children are under 16, the govt have made it almost impossible for a school to permanantly exclude them. So children have learnt that they can behave as outrageously as they like because, in the end, there are no real consequences for bad behaviour. Essentially they have learnt that there are no consequences for poor behaviour in school.

Imagine how those students who don't really have to deal with consequences for poor behaviour at home feel when they hit college and encounter the dragon from hell (i.e. me )who expects them to turn up to class on time, expects them to do their work expects homework to be completed and handed in, expects respectful behaviour both towards the teacher and each other, expects, in short, simple common manners. The poor dears have a great deal of diffculty in coping. Inevitably we get some who can't deal with the idea that it is simply not OK to shout over the teacher, do no work, play around with equipment, have mobile phone conversations in class and drop out. What is interesting is we tend to see these students 3 or 4 years later as adult students. What happens is they cannot cope with some simple self discipline, leave college, try and get a job, get fired for turning up late and swearing at the boss, spend 4 years or so growing up then come back to finish their education.

The students who have learnt from their parents that actions have consequences are usually the ones who thrive after the initial adjustment period.

Of course, you could always go down the 'blame Maggie Thatcher' route too. My students, maybe more than most, see personal success in terms of income. They know teachers are poorly paid, therefore, in their eyes, we are a bunch of failures who don't deserve any respect. The only ones in the class who deserve respect are those with the flashest mobile phones, the fastest cars and the most extensive designer wardrobe. How can we compete with that mindset???

Ah - knew she had to be behind it somewhere.

I can't wade into the debate and apologies if this has been said already but:

there are a lot of good upstanding parents out there who are really making rods for their backs thinking that their little darlings cannot break eggs. When the school complains about the child, 'it is not possibly my child surprise from them'. Many times I see it in children who have learnt to play mum against dad and then move on to try to manipulate parents vs teachers.

I have had a typed single spaced letter A4 from a nice upstanding father who extolled his son's virtues and telling me that I don't know his son and I should go and discipline truly naughty boys instead of him. The letter was so chock full of arrogance that my HOD took it to the Head teacher to deal with.

There is also the parent who went into meltdown at the school's football coach for yr8 in front of the whole team and other school because his son was to play at X position since that is the position that he is being trained at with a junior team for a certain premiership club. No wonder when I came back from maternity leave I noticed that at 13 he had developed a certain arrogance.

Another is the parent who is an LSA in another school going up to another teacher at an out of school event and grilling him about risk assessments and 'why doesn't the caretaker do that?' for taking down the football net after an interschool footie match.

when good parents have such low opinions of teachers, it is no wonder that they have 'well behaved' kids at home but monsters at school.

All these parents are 'good' people who are not thinking thru their actions and setting really poor examples for their kids.

Ds and Dd school recently lost the goodwill of one of their teachers, who refereed inter-school Footie games. He won't do it anymore after getting so much grief from parents - where has all this attitude come from?

sassy, yes I was hmb

Slug, we get the same 'shock' effect when we inform trouble makers that we will not take them into the sixth form. It comes as such a massive surprise that after 5 years in school showing shocking behaviour, rudness and disruption, we simply refuse to let them carry on. That said, standards of dicipline in eth sixth form are falling as the 'bums of seats= more money' policy filters through.

I have seen applications to join the sixth form from students who were persistant truants. WTF???? Also a lad who kept on setting off the fire alarms.

Crazy! TBH our inabilty to show them that their actions have consequences is to my mind one of the greatest failings of the modern education system. Not learning about photosynthesis is sad (I'm a biology teacher....indulge me ) but not learning that telling people to 'Fuck off' is wrong is going to end up with some of these kids getting the shit kicked out of them.

The lenghts that some parents go to prevent the kids suffereing the consequences are amazing. We once banned a kid from the year 11 graduation ball for persistant rude and bad behaviour. If he had been mine, I'd have grounded him. His mother instead wrote to the school, begging us to let him attend. Yet again trying to make sure that he could act in any way he chose without consequences. I wonder why he was so badly behaved in the first place? He crashed the ball, drunk, and had to be evicted by 2 male memvbers of staff.

My ds has had an excellent school record...up until y10 and the onset of GCSEs. The pressure that is being put on him to produce coursework and to change his whole approach to learning is intolerable. He has always had a relaxed approach to learning but he has always produced the desired results. Top set in all subjects. L6 and L7 in y9 sats. Identified as g&t. He is not great at coursework. Over the last year we have watched as he has fallen apart. Yes, his behaviour now dismays his teachers. He is the joker in the class. Not good, I know, but the handling of the situation completely baffles me. He has been called a loser by one teacher, a waste of space by another. He has been harrassed by several claiming that their subject is more important -forget the other coursework, just do mine. He is picking up detention after detention for lateness. After persuading him to attend after school catch-up class he went to inform pupil services to re-arrange his detention which clashed, only to be told not their problem he had to do detention that night. So he sat for 1hr doing lines. Teachers phone me on a regular basis to tell me he hasn't done his coursework, he hasn't brought his pen, he arrived in class late. We have had complaints against him which have sounded serious but after further investigation have been found to be overexaggerated with teachers admitting to losing their temper and behaving inappropriately.
My ds is a different person in school holidays and on the recent job experience had an excellent report from the employer, was punctual and interested. He goes to school optimistic after each holiday and two days in it all starts to go downhill again. He then begins to bring it home being impatient and short-tempered with his family. As I said term-time the stress is intolerable. We have been in the school again and again to discuss what to do. They come up with various strategies which we agree and then they are too busy to follow them through, so he gets left with a report card on which teachers can put whatever they like. Most are good comments which are ignored and he is taken to task for the few bad comments. Comments such as questioning why they had to do something, talking in class. Comments that applied to the rest of the class but of course they don't have a report card. Where he wanted to go to sixth-form college in y9 now he is losing all interest in learning whatsoever.
He has never sworn at a teacher or been threatening and I should think not. At worst we would say he is behaving immaturely in class and is bored. Work set for him when he was sent out of class to another teacher he completed in 15mins. And it's a vicious circle the more they apply the pressure, the worse his behaviour becomes, the more they apply pressure....Out of school anyone who knows him only has positive things to say about him. I could go on and on and on.
My only surprise is that he has not truanted because if it was me I wouldn't want to go into that situation day after day.
No - I don't think all parents are to blame for their children's behaviour at school and I think schools should take some responsibility for their actions too.

Not relevant to our situation, I know, but Martianbishop said "But in the end I get kids for a maximum of 2 hours and 20 minutes a week. The effect of the parents far outweighs my influence on them."
Children are at school at least 6 hours per day. Some are out of the home in some form of professional care (wrap-around, nursery etc) for 10hours a day (8-6). How much time does that leave parents to influence their children?

Have a feeling I might regret posting this

Agree that they are in school for longer but I only have them for a maximum of 2 hours and 20 minutes a week....so whatever I do it very limited.

Course work is a real bug bear. The difficulty is that for the teachers, they know that if your son doesn't complete his c/w he will get poor grades. what is pressure on your son is in all probabilty driven by his teachers desire to do well.

I am currently seeing one child at regestration time every day. His parents may well see that as intolerable. But I know that without this he will not get his predicted grades of B , but more like a grade D.

For good or ill we are stuck with C/W. I know it isn't ideal, but if you do away with it them parents will worry that their kids are cracking up under the strain of just having examinations with no form of continual assessment/

FWIW, you have my sympathy.

We are all surprised at the way our society is moving but we've brought it on ourselves. When I was little, decent people had respect for authority, whether it was the police, teachers, or whatever. Then came the trend that people should be allowed to do whatever they like, and that you are as good as the next man so why should you bow down to that person... This appears to be a natural consequence of that attitude. It's a very short step from "this is my house, why shouldn't I play my music at full blast at 11pm" to "that teacher can't tell my kid what to do". We are all about "rights" rather than responsibilities, and MNetters are guilty of this as much as anyone else.

As an aside, I was an LSA in a very very rough secondary school. I was with my main class from Y10 to Y11 and there were some very nasty characters. They were all low achievers and some had genuine learning difficulties. We had 2 science teachers. There was a little tiny lady who looked like a strong wind would blow her away. She never raised her voice. In her classes everyone sat quietly and worked. Homework was handed in on time. There was order. If anyone crossed the line they were dealt with swiftly and consistently. The other science teacher was a rotund man. He blustered and shouted and threatened. The class was a disaster with pupils wandering around the room, breaking equipment, interfering with pupils who were trying to work, shouting. Homework was never done. The kids had no respect for him at all (and neither did I!)

It was the same story in every lesson. We had a fabulous English teacher who kept everyone's attention and provided interesting lessons that kept the pupils on task. We also had an English teacher who sat at his desk reading, occasionally screaming at the kids that they should feel grateful to get a free education. (Even the "good" kids reacted badly in these lessons )There was just one history teacher and he was so fierce that even the LSAs didn't dare breath.... and the kids enjoyed his lessons.

A very long ramble but this was the same pupils, reacting to the different styles of different teachers. Unruly kids are not just a result of bad parents- teachers have to share some of the responsibility.

Tallulah Said " we are about rights rather than responsabilities" i think this is an excellent statement.

its a joint thing isn't it? you get crap parents you get crap teachers sometimes even if a kid has a crap parent - if they have a good teacher it makes all the difference, if you have a good parents and crap teachers the same thing applies. and sometimes kids get crap both.

it amazes me how my children completely change when they go to school.

thought juules gave a very good post.

funnl=ily enough i got a phone call from a french teacher asking "if there was anything wrong as ds was being disruptive in class"
this was the morning after i had cleared up and straightened my thoughts on this thread so i replied " yes. he cannot keep up in class and if you don't give him enough time, he cannot complete his work, if you only give him a minute to write his homework in his womework diary - he can't read it - even if he's managed to write it all down. therefore in the next lesson you will find he is acting a clown becuase he would rather get a detention for being naughty than to be humiliated in front of his peers for not being able to complete his work."

my son had french the same day and we recieved a phone call home " mrs custardo, would like to tell you how very exceelent your son has been today" it was the same day so i hadn't even had time to have a chat.

there you go an excellent example of when good teachers meet good parents. the french teacher has always phoned home when one of the kids did well in the past. - how very very ery excellent is that ? that she should take the time to ring home to say nie things - as usually the only communication with school has to do with then wanting your money or becuase your child has been in trouble. so tis much appreciated

I have just spent several hours in the evening doing just this for my form. I had to start each chat with the worst 'Nothing wrong' since the parent paniced when I told them who I was!

It was rather nice to have the chats. Something else that we have brought in is a Progress day. School closes for a day to teaching. Every child gets a 15 minute chat with their form tutor and parents on how things are going, if they are meeting their projected targets. It is exceptionaly useful, as the parent gets all the information on all the subjects in one go. If there are any probelm areas the form tutor then sets up a meeting with the specific teachers and parents are parents evening.

Staff, parents and children then agree on three targets for the next year. SEN review is done at the same time with SENCO support.

It does mean that the kids have to bee out of school for the day, but is very helpful. Appointment go on from 8.30 till 7 if needed.

We started this last year and the only criticism is that we didn't start it sooner. I would urge ebvery parent to get this set up in your schools.

When I was teaching I used to spend time before going home at the end of the week doing my fanstastic Friday calls, I would choose one child from each class and phone their parents to say how well he/ she had done that week.

It worked well on 2 levels, on a Friday I was often knackered so it motivated me, all was not bad there are good kids who are motivated and want to achieve. It also meant that the kids knew that I would not just contact home if things went wrong but also when thigs went right , a great motivator. It also helps when things go wrong if I have spoken to the parents in the past, preferably about something more positve.

Whenever i took over a new form I would send home a card introducing myself and explaining what my role as a from tutor was. Hopefully again making my self more approachable. One year I even sent home a picture of me so they would know who I was!

In one of my schools I had a form full of very naught but very sporty kids, I would strive to always be down at the playing field cheering the kids on, sometimes briniging refreshments. This would sometimes give me an oppurtunity to meet parents on a more relaxed informal basis, it is always easier to tell a kid off once they have seen you chearing them on at touchline. They see you as a real person not just a nagging machine.

I miss my job

Now that I work with families I realise that for some people teachers are intimidating and the more you can do to break down that barrier the better.

Thta sounds like a great scheme MB, form tutors are often undervalued they do much more than tick the register.

MB - what is pressure on your son is in all probabilty driven by his teachers desire to do well."
We originally thought this but as the methods being applied only make the situation worse we can't see the logic in pursuing those methods.

MB - I am currently seeing one child at regestration time every day. His parents may well see that as intolerable.

Our ds was also to report to someone one morning a week and to contact this person if something arose he felt he had a problem dealing with. We thought this was a great idea as did he. However, the person was hardly ever available after the first week. Our ds was then late for lessons having not seen the person he was told he could turn to.

As for coursework - we suspect our ds would probably do better if the exam system was straight forward end of year exam setup. His teachers don't have any worries that he will do well in the exam itself.

Sorry if I appear to be directing mostly at you MB. I'm not aiming personally at you and thank you for your understanding.

We also can't understand why it is so seemingly life or death that he passes with A/Bs. If he wanted to he could sit the relevant exams at a later date. While we agree that it would be better if he did it now and got it out of the way, it would not be the end of the world if he didn't and it is definitely not worth turning him into a young adult with a chip on his shoulder. We have letters saying "this exam is crucial to your childs future" "Failure to acheive a grade C...would mean retaking exams at FE college....not a situation any of us wants". These statements seem a bit extreme to me.
I am feeling very overwhelmed by the whole situation.

On the subject of positive phone calls. I'm afraid I don't quite see the point. I expect my children to be doing their best in school. If I don't hear from the school then that is what I assume - that all is well and everybody is happy. Parents evenings/ tutorial days etc usually back that up.
Personally I would think teachers have enough to do without having to reassure everybody that everything is ok.

Boys do tend to do better as a rule in subjects that are exam based rather than coursework, something i have seen to be the case from my own experience of chasing boys around school for coursework.

Getting grade C does matter as it is seen by many employers and colleges as the cut off for pass.Being a touch cynical grade C's matter to schools as they are often judged by their A-C pass rate. Hence they are the children most focussed upon, sadly negelcting those at either ends of the scale.

juule. I can 'see' what sort of boy your son is, just like my dh! dh is great at the 'death or glory', end of year exam style of examination and would have been awful at c/w.

There is a lot of discussion wbout c/w by teachers as it is generaly felt to benefit girls, who like steady levels of work through the term over the boys who can 'cram' for the exam and do well.

The probelm with gigng information in a letter is that it can often seem harsh. sadly the reality is that school will often not let kids move on to A levels without a grade C at GCSE.....simply because kids who don't get a C are unlikly to get a grade E at A level.

You honestly have my sympathy....it is a difficult situation

Perhaps if your child has always done well at school and is in an acheiving school it wouldn't matter as much. But if you are a parent who has nver heard anything positive about your child it does matter. If you are a parent sending your child to a "failing" school again it matters as you cannot assume everything is great and often all you here from/about that school is negative.

I would never phone home to say your child is doing as I expected, I would phone home to say your child has surpassed my expectations. As a parent that is something I would love to hear.

I also don;t see it as wasting my time, I see it as part of an effective classroom management programme, I would rather spend two minutes praising a child than have to spend 30 minutes disciplining an unmotivated child.

I also think, like you, T and P that it is a good way of building a rlationship with the parents, which can only be helpful in terms of a child's progress.

It is like silly things like stickers and stamps. I have one that says mrs martianbiship sawys well done. They are realy for primary kids but my secondary kids clamour for them, even those in the sixth form. Every one likes a pat on the back

I also think, like you, T and P that it is a good way of building a rlationship with the parents, which can only be helpful in terms of a child's progress.

It is like silly things like stickers and stamps. I have one that says mrs martianbiship sawys well done. They are realy for primary kids but my secondary kids clamour for them, even those in the sixth form. Every one likes a pat on the back

I also think, like you, T and P that it is a good way of building a rlationship with the parents, which can only be helpful in terms of a child's progress.

It is like silly things like stickers and stamps. I have one that says mrs martianbiship sawys well done. They are realy for primary kids but my secondary kids clamour for them, even those in the sixth form. Every one likes a pat on the back

sorry, computer fart