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Parents to blame for unruly children

88 replies

speedymama · 11/10/2005 19:42

I totally agree with this .

My DT are only 19 months old but I am responsible for the way they develop. It is my responsibility to discipline them, teach them right from wrong, to have respect for authority figures,teach them that every action has consequences, teach them that if they want respect, they have to show respect and teach them that in life, one has responsibilities, not just rights.

I have friends and family who are teachers and in their opinion,it is the feckless parents of unruly children who are the cause of so much angst. Too many parents think that their darlings can do what they like without facing up to the consequences and this is undermining the authority in schools. I would also like to add, that in my opinion, too many do-gooders have undermined the role of parents in disciplining their off-spring and are therefore partly responsible for the degeneration in children's behaviour at school because kids know that teachers can do very little to discipline them.

Right, that's me off my soapbox. Must go and tend to my chores now that DTs are bed.

OP posts:
Trickorflum · 12/10/2005 23:42

Great post MB.

Chandra · 12/10/2005 23:55

CLAP, CLAP, CLAP. Can't agree more MB

Berries · 13/10/2005 09:37

ok, going with the analogy of the bus driver....
Bus driver has to get to the bus stop on time. If he's late, everyone gets on his back. 6 kids on the bus start picking on 1 kid, name-calling, ostracising them etc, but bus driver has to get to the bus stop on time. He can't stop the bus because then no-one will get there, so he drives on. Every day, the bus gets to the bus stop on time, even the kid being picked on. Doesn't matter if she says she wants to die cos hey - we get to the stop on time so everything must be alright.
Kid being picked on tries to get the attention of the bus driver - grabs steering wheel. All of a sudden, there is a danger the bus wont get to the stop on time. Bus driver insists kid sits at front where they can be watched. While they are being watched, other kids can't pick on them. Kid sits quietly so bus gets to stop on time. Next day, kid is told to sit with the others at the back again. Others pick on kid, but driver can't stop driving to sort it out in case they don't get to the stop on time. Kid realises only way to get this to stop is to disrupt the bus journey. circle continues.
Bus driver gets fed up & throws kid off the bus. 6 kids at the back smile & move onto the next victim. Circle continues.

Yes, there are times when the children are badly disciplined at home, parents should instil good manners and a respect for others in their children, but 'parent-bashing' isn't the answer. Neither is teacher-bashing. A comment from my dds teacher 'I realise when you helped out that you don't allow that kind of behaviour'. Seems to me that teachers may be too quick to jump into the 'parents won't back us up, therefore there is little we can do mode', and wait to be proved otherwise. In the analogoy above, there is 1 obvious solution - PUT A CONDUCTOR ON THE BUS. If you agree that children learn better when they are sat at tables, not at desks facing the front, then they need more monitoring, and teachers can't do this and teach as well.

Sorry this is long. As a mum of 2 'well-behaved' kids I would have blamed lack of parental discipline as well. Now my children are working their way through the school system I realise it's not always that simple.

Caligula · 13/10/2005 10:29

I like the taxi/ bus driver analogy as well! But what perplexes me, is that even though those parents who don?t discipline their kids effectively and don?t care, are in the minority, their children appear to set the agenda for what happens in the classroom. It's like this tiny very vocal minority are the ones whose values and priorities have taken over schools, against the wishes of the majority who are then dominated by them. (I remember once having an absolutely ineffective maths teacher for a year, and the whole class was out of control - I was as much out of control as everyone else, and was scared and unhappy about it - it was such a relief for all of us, including the ringleaders, when our old, stern maths teacher came back and imposed order).

As far as unruly behaviour in the classroom is concerned, practically no-one is in favour of it - even the parents who are unable to discipline their kids at home, don?t want school to allow them to behave like that at school (I was having a chat with one of those the other day - she was complaining that her out of control child hadn't been punished properly for his behaviour at school and "they let him get away with anything". I nearly fell over! ). And yes I know that?s unfair and I know that parents should not abdicate their responsibility to parent effectively and expect the school to do it for them, but otoh if schools don?t set a high benchmark of behaviour, they are damaging all the children who come from homes where parents do care about behaviour standards and are trying to impose proper boundaries (not to mention the kids who don't).

I suppose what I?m saying, is that parents who don?t back schools up are obviously a menace, but schools who don?t back parents up, and allow children to get away with bad behaviour, are also a menace ? I really don?t want any school to teach my child that it?s OK to swear at an adult, to throw chairs around, to attack other kids etc. It?s not in my interest or in their's. And I don?t know what the answer is, but there are examples of schools where the kids have been semi-feral within the school, but a new regime has turned the school around ? there was an article recently about a terrible failing school in the East End of London where the headmaster came in and simply imposed a new regime to turn the school into one of the most oversubscribed in the area with great results. He was working with the same kids and the same parents as the regime before, but he managed to get them to behave differently. I guess he must have had the support of the LEA, the governors, his teachers, the parents, the pupils etc, plus the vision and faith to push his changes through and who knows what else. Waffle waffle waffle, but I agree with Berries, the knee-jerk parent-bashing which seems to be the response to bad behaviour, is not a positive development. It just sets up a "them and us" scenario which no one reasonable, parent or teacher, can possibly think is a healthy relationship. And I'm also a bit puzzled by it tbh, because while most parents aren't teachers and know absolutely sweet FA about what goes on in classrooms, most teachers actually are parents, (aren't they?) and do know an awful lot about parenting and its complexitites. But I guess after a few years of experiencing loony parents every day, they could well perceive other parents with a pretty jaded eye, if a survey is put in front of them, those parents are going to be uppermost in their minds when they answer the questions - especially if it's the day after some loon has just demanded that their son be let off detention for the tenth time, because pulling a knife on another pupil is just natural high spirits!

Caligula · 13/10/2005 10:30

Ooh, sorry, did go on a bit - it's because I'm avoiding doing any work!

Berries · 13/10/2005 12:17

Caligula - snap, so am I . I am closely related to 4 teachers (sis, sil,mil,bil) and sometimes they shock me with their comments about parents, who they admit they don't know. Their attitude is that if child behaves like 'x', then parents must be 'y' and there is nothing they can do about it. Having said that, they also manage to shock me with some of the things that parents do. The secondary teachers are at the receiving end of a lot of aggression, and I guess this can make them view a lot of parents with a bit of a jaded eye.

Chandra · 13/10/2005 12:23

I think that saying that just a minority of behaviour problems are caused by lack of parental discipline it's an understatement.

Back to the analogy of the bus driver, I think the bus driver was hired to drive the bus, and that there should be a figure in charge of dealing with special cases. (but, there is one, isn't it? Obviously it will take him/her a life time (or 10)to be an expert in every kind of child problem that he/she needs to tackle)

I think it's much feasible to have an improvement in behaviour by asking AND helping the parents to improve their parental skills, than to ask a teacher to be succesful doing that job just because of the simple reason that discipline is a one to one issue, and parents have less children on their charge than a teacher.

I would like to add an analogy here, I have a friend who has 4 VERY active under 5 children (no ADHD or anything of the sort, just bubbly lively children's behaviour excarbated by their own company and suggestions), and the other day she was telling me she wanted to get rid of the maid (who doubles up as a full time childminder as the children don't attend a nursery or anything of the sort) because the woman did only the basic cleaning of the house! so here was this woman (my friend) telling me that apart of taking care of her 4 boisterous children (BTW once fallen down the stair while we were talking), doing the shopping, making beds, the food, the dusting, cleaning floors, and very important... do the ironing!!! (this friend even has their underwear pressed as well as bed sheets etc) and all that for a crap minimum salary. And here she was telling me that she wanted to get rid of her because she was not doing the cleaning up to her high standards and she didn't bath the kids before leaving at 6 even when she had started work at 7:30!!! Ohh and how could she dare to be so annoyed just because they arrived a bit late and made her miss her train??? FGS!

I believe everybody wants to have the perfect teacher but sometimes the requirements seem oblivious to how overworked that person is. In the case of my friend's maid, she was not a bad maid, it was just that she had far too much to do, in an environment full of disruptions, and obviously, there's only so many little hours in a day. I think this is the case with the majority of teachers.

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 14:42

caligula, the trouble is that school have very few tools at their disposal to control unruly kids. In the end the ultimate sanction is to exclude them. But there are penelties put on schools when they exclude large numbers of kids.

Also the excluded kids have to go somewhere, normaly another school. So you end up with trouble makes being shunted from school to school within an LEA. The government is talking about paying schools extra monet to take on troublesome kids, and the funding will then be taken away from other schools.

The system is one hell of a mess.

I teach in a good school with good support from the managmant and other staff. Not all schools are like this. This is an obvious fault and I have yet to meet a teacher who disagree with it.

The 'loony parent' analogy is an interesting one. You actualy get very nice, non loony parents who can't see why you are diciplining their child. They know that they child was inocent, or if guilty not deserving of the punishment. For example I posted on mn once about a girl who had her trousers pulled down (age 13 mark you) in the middle of the play ground. The boy who did it was excluded for a week. The mother came in and complained that we had been too harsh. He son had humiliated a girl in front of her friends, in an action that bordered on asault, and she felt we had over reacted. And she wasn't a loony.

Good managment can undoubtibly turn around a school. In every case I have read about they do it my being very firm in dicipline, often zero tolerance. Trouble is that many, many oparents don't agree with this level of diciplince. There are lots of very nice , kind loving parents on MN who would fall into that catagory.

I don't think a knee jerk reposnse 'it is the parents' is apt either, and have posted as much at every point. But oft times parents don't want us to diciplince their kids in school and fight the school all the way.

I think that every child in my class has a right to my time, I shouldn't have to spend half a lesson calming down out of control kids. I have seen children of 13 simply refuse to move, making members of staff have to stop work and stand with then in the middle of the playground. I have seen friends have false allegations made of them. I have a colleue who had a knife pulled on him. When I posted this on MN one posted sugested that this could be because the collegue was sexually abusing the child. And if it is like that on MN, just think what it is like in the less reasonable world.

Caligula · 13/10/2005 14:52

I agree that schools often don't have enough sanctions at their disposal. And it looks like they have to hit rock bottom, before parents will back zero tolerance.

Luckily (or unluckily as the case may be) it looks like many schools are hitting the rock bottom needed to motivate parents to accept the discipline needed. I think there's a sea-change in people's attitudes going on - Blair's "respect" campaign is part of this, however nebulous and unfocussed. As parents, we're getting more information than we used to about what's going on in the classroom (that awful Channel 5 programme, for example) and beginning to understand the extent of abysmal behaviour that's going on and how urgent it is that it's stopped.

But again, it comes back to schools not being able to do it all themselves - and also parents not being to either. Things like the wider culture, marketing, the media, etc., also have a part to play. Let's face it, parents and teachers are fighting an uphill battle as long as the media are telling children that the best thing to be is as stupid as a Big Brother contestant, that actions don't have any negative consequences and that the only thing that matters is what brand of clothes you're wearing.

Ooh, I'm in a ranting mood this afternoon!

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 14:55

A minor 'for example' of how far standards have fallen. I had to talk to some 13/14 year olds yesterday about their behaviour one said to me, 'look over there miss' (trying to leg it) and his friand added 'Someone is having a gang bang'

Now would any of us have dared to say that to a teacher?

Think of the awful Grace in unteachables (who Richard Madley praied for being an individual) who called her headmaster a 'Black Cunt' on TV!

expatinscotland · 13/10/2005 15:02

See the 'Lady Thatcher's 80th birthday' thread. Apparently, Mags is to blame. For everything. And everyone's behaviour.

Chandra · 13/10/2005 15:05

MB, that brings back some memories... when I was about 13 yrs old I had a classmate that was a .... a... a full live and working model of a tazmanian devil (like WB's one) Anyways, although he was really good fun, he was always getting himself into problems, he ruined furniture, scribbled on the walls, kept missing classes, failed most exams, but in the end he was a smiley happy and very popular chap.

One day he went too far, we were all in our arts class making candles when he decided to empty a container of wax into the open fire of a gas heater. Obviously, the fire took off and extended into a wall, the windows on that side of the room were made of some plastic material and they also went on fire, everything was covered in smoke. Teacher took the initiative to extinguish the fire himself while we were evacuated from the room. The firemen arrived shortly afterwards.

What made the thing hugely interesting was that the mother of the kid came a day afterwards and directed a scream-to-the-teacher session in front of all the class. She claimed the teacher was picking on her son (obviously couldn't see what was the fuzz about the kid setting the classroom on fire), that he was always a good boy, and any bad behaviour should be excussed as he was suffering a lot from losing his father many years before. She went on and on and the most that she said, the most that we realised that no matter how much she loved her son, we knew our friend better. And no, the teacher was not picking on him, not at all, ever!

Guess this is an example of the so called loony parent.

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 16:02

Hmm, all too familier.

Reminds o=me of a probelm the other way around. A parennt was demanding that there be an inqiry into lab safety after her child had to be taken (by parent after school) to A and E after inhaling 'dangerous fumes' produced bt burning a white powder in a school lab. The dangerous white powder.....sugar!

Next week when they were burnng things the teacher sent the child out of the room....then the complaint was that we were 'picking on' the child!

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 16:05

Last year we had two kids set fire to part of the school. They were 15/16 and were not permanently excluded. Great message there for the kids. You can set fire to the school and they don't do anything to you. That really imporved behaviour in the school

Marina · 13/10/2005 16:09

MB, I really don't understand at times how you manage to stick with trying to give our children an education. I don't think I can begin to comprehend some of the stuff you encounter. I take my hat off to you, truly.
The need for more bus conductors in the state system and custy's reminder of the role peer pressure plays stick in my mind from this thought-provoking debate.

Marina · 13/10/2005 16:12

I live in the LEA which has just been forced to pay damages to a child excluded for bringing a knife to school, BTW. His mum is quick to point out that he is a misunderstood boy. None of the press coverage has managed to make clear whether she thinks it is acceptable for him to take knives to school, whatever the legal technicalities behind the reason for his successful appeal against exclusion.
The school in question is my big local comp

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 16:12

It is, wihtout dounbt the best and most rewarding job that I have ever had. Don't forget that with all my teacher whinging, I teach some very fine and wonderful kids. It is a real honour to work with most of them, and I'm not being snide. Rather like parent it is the best and worst of jobs, separated by about 10 minutes.

I get to work with some smashing kids, get to turn around some real horrors and fail with some. All that and they pay me as well....can you tell I had a good day today!

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 16:13

I have taught a child who was returned to school after cutting a child with a knife (an accident it was said but why the hell have a knife!) Totaly out of order

Chandra · 13/10/2005 16:17

oh yes, a nice little holiday before the end of the term...

Having said that, I had another friend that set up on fire a chemistry lab(you are going to think I was a problem child considering the fiends I had but believe me, I was the conscience voice in the group ), but he was permanently excluded. He went into work (running errands at his father's office) but was never able to go back to propper school. It was not a bad solution though, he learned a lot in the office and the last I heard of him was that he was helping doing some accounting work. Now, he was different to my other friend, he didn't plan the things, they just happened to him! the perfect and consistent example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Marina · 13/10/2005 16:19

nice typo there Chandra

one person's friends are another's fiends

Chandra · 13/10/2005 16:20

just realised , probably I'm a fiend now for speaking evil of them

Chandra · 13/10/2005 16:22

You see? if my poor English teacher had been allowed to teach her class rather than spending a long time correcting my frrriends, I would not be making these mistakes today !

Blandmum · 13/10/2005 16:30

And with all these troubled kids that are left in mainstream there will a whole class denied an education becasue they are in there with them. You only need two kids like this in a class to have chaos on your hands. So the troubled kids don't learn anything and neither does anyone else. So how is this inclusion helping anyone?

We have kids statmented for learning probelms. We also have kids statemented for what is called EBD....emotional behavioural disorder (ADHD isn't counted in the=is BTW or ASD) . These kids are often in te same clasees as each other. So the kids who most nned my time don't get it because the EBD kids kick off. Kids with ASD who can't cope with 'normal' levels of noise have to cope with EBD kids flipping out in the corner of the room. It is farcical

Has anyone watched Unteachables? They had 16 kids to start a 'super' teacher, a 'super' head and ted Wragg (professor of education) along with 16 youth workers. They had the kids for two weeks. Only 9 of them finished the course....the rest had to be expelled. Their behaviour was not that much worse than some kids that I have worked with, the difference being that I didn't have 16 youth workeds and when the kids got out of hand, I couldn't send them for an early lunch.

Even with all that support, and the fact that they didn't have to stick to the national curriculum (which us mere mortals have to do) they could only teach some of these kids when the most disruptive elements were excluded.

speedymama · 13/10/2005 20:46

I have just come back to this thread after starting it 2 days ago (twin toddlers take up a lot of my time).

The points made by MB mirror the experiences of my frinds and sister in law who are teachers. In fact one my friends, who was a male chemistry teacher, left the profession after only 2 years. He taught in a high achieving selective state girls school where a lot of the parents are in high paying graduate type jobs. He thought it would be a good school to teach in but it drove him out of the profession, mainly because of the parents. The attitude of the parents was that the teachers were there to serve their individual child, regardless of the others and he just got fed up of the pushiness, arrogance and in some cases visible contempt that some of these well heeled parents had for the teachers. I think he could have coped better if he had to deal with badly behaving children but sneering parents who thought they knew more than the teachers was something he was not prepared to put up with( and nobody should for that matter!).

Generally speaking, I think that teachers hands are tied when it comes to disciplining unruly children, particularly when the parents involved are blind to their child's fault. Equally, I know that there are some teachers (according to my friends and family) who are incapable of motivating and engaging children at school.

However, thinking back to my childhood, I had poor teachers but I would never misbehave in class because I did not want to endure the wrath of my parents. Being called a goody two shoes by my class mates did not bother me because what mattered most to me, was not disappointing my parents. My parents taught me that when I was at school, the teachers were in charge and I was there to learn. Why do so many children these days openly challenge the authority of teachers? Is it because they know that their parents will support them, no matter what? Also, if they have no respect for the authority in school, how are they going to cope in a job where most of them will have to answer to a manager/boss of some sort? Like it or not, children have to learn that in the real world, we are all answerable to some kind of authority - it is not just about an individual's right, there is a small thing called responsibility.

Must dash now.

OP posts:
Tortington · 13/10/2005 23:03

no one can reasonably argue the examples given however i do feel that all the blame is being laid with the parents. and i dont think this is right.

i know the system cannot help my child individually however it doesn't negate the fact that he needs more than the school is giving him.

i also think not enough emphasis or maybe even credability is given in this thread to the enourmous thing that is peer pressure, school is also a social environment like it or not.

as a goody two shoes i endured 10 years of torture. i wouldnt want that for my kids - however i dont want them to act like hooligans either becuase thats not the way i drag them up. theres a fine line. its somewhere inbetween.

i think the parents do have the ultimate responsability for the behaviour of their child. but some responsability lies with educators and environment.

i think its a trap - its a conspiricy i tell you. you start falling for daily mail stuff like this and soon parents will be forced to give up work to look after their kids at home. rendering the family poorer in evrey way. helping society in no way at all. and allowing the govt to get off the hook of putting in more resources.

no children should not be disrespectful - but lets start from where we are not where we should be. kids are disrespectful, punishments are not harsh enough incentives are few and far between, some schools are nothing more than daily crowd control - and these young adults are forming the society where YOUR children are going to grow up.

you are not going to solve the parenting problem - the govt certainly arnt.

parenting is not always the problem
smaller class sizes
greater resources
improved teaching methods
greater punishments and rewards

the greatest failing imo is a parent who doesnt instill hope for the future.

no matter where you are on the ladder of life - if you think you're shit - you're shit.
if you never tell a child they are worth anything - they feel worthless.
and them to back this whole big fuck up the education system fails them too.

blame is all too easy especially when money is involved.