When do you know the school's not right for DC?

[Solo2]

Has anyone here had a child who's gone through a difficult time at school (like DS1 now aged 9) but, with parental support and persistence, has got through this and thrived?

DS1 - like his twin - is in an academically selective prep school. He was offered a place at age 2.75 at the pre-prep, perceived as the 'right sort of child for the school' but I turned the place as his twin didn't get in. Both were offered places at age 6.

DS2 is thriving - except struggling with maths, as the school are doing 11+ maths with these 9 to 10 yr olds, given there are several genuine maths geniuses at the school. DS1 isn't thriving. He's having a difficult year socially, feels isolated and bullied and is very very down on himself academically.

He keeps telling me he's "stupid". He's in 'remedial handwriting'. He's struggling in the middle set of three maths sets and being told he'll be 'put down' if he doesn't do better. The maths teacher uses public comparisons and sarcasm to 'support' children . The school's feedback is that DS1's unfocused and lazy.

He's right in the middle of seeing a neuropsychologist, privately, as I think he has problems with attention/ memory and processing at speed but there's no outcome yet. I think his difficulties academically are hard-wired cognitive problems - not lack of trying.

He's recently had some ongoing health issues (investigations for irregular heartbeat and recurrent vomiting).

This school has a fantastic reputation and the seniors is somewhere near the top of the league tables. It's rapidly expanding and hugely oversubscribed. Class size is quite large for a fee-paying school (24 to 26 in each of three Yr 5 classes). It's 'known' locally as the 'best' school and both my twins are aware of it's reputation and don't want to leave. They feel familiar with the school, until last yr, DS1 had loads of friends and DS2 fits really well here (has Asperger's traits but so do many of the other children).

But for the first time, I'm seriously wondering if it's been a huge mistake to send them here. Maybe others have been in the position where your child has managed to pass entrance exams for an academically selective school and you feel proud and get caught up on a wave of feeling that they've 'made it' - a bit like I remember feeling when I got into Oxbridge. I wasn't happy there, however and I'm not sure DS1 is happy at age 9 at a highly 'esteemed' school.

Can this still work for DS1? Could he just be going through a difficult phase? Might he be fine by Yr 6 and have others had children who have similarly floundered but survived and thrived?

He'd be devastated to leave and it'd be logistically impossible to manage him in one school and DS2 in the current school (I'm a single mum running f/t business alone and no family support around). So in a way, either both stay or both leave...If DS2 stayed and DS1 left, I think DS1 would feel always that he was the one who'd 'failed'.

But then there's the thing that there's no clear alternative. There are 3 other fee-paying schools - with smaller class sizes - which is gugely attractive. Two of these, ('posher but not so academically selective)though, end at age 13 and many of the children then go to boarding school - not an option I'd consider / want or be able to afford.

The other school ends at age 16 - with children going on to 6 form colleges - and the school fees are less than what I pay now but there are only 16 children in each class. However, this school seesm to have a local reputation as the school you send your DCs to if they have "emotional/ psychological problems and aren't very bright" (not my words). My DCs would feel massively 'demoted' by a move here and neither wants to leave the current school either....

The local state schools are fine but have large class sizes and in no way compare with the fee-paying schools in terms of results, opportunities, extra curricular things.

As I have no partner to discuss this with, I thought I'd 'put it out' on MN. I'm about to meet with the deputy head and DS1s form teacher but this is to discuss how to help DS1 with friendships rather than a wider picture about his loss of confidence academically as well. I've already talked to the school about this but nothing's changed and I can hardly say, "can you get some better teachers, reduce class size and ensure that the maths teacher stops declaring publicly, DS1's poor test results each week"!

There is even more pressure than usual on the children as they approach important Yr 5 exams. They're getting masses of homework, as well as being expected to revise and certainly my DCs are not managing any revision as their ordinary homework alone (well the maths really) is taking 2 to 2.5 hrs a night. Last night they were both crying about feeling too tired to do anymore and I was in conflict, feeling like I'm failing them if I don't support them to complete homework but also feeling like I'm failing them if I push them beyond the limits.

This is all detail but my core question right now is - do I take them out of this school - but thereby possibly pass up on the 'best' education they might have - or do I keep trying to work with them and the school to help them/ DS1 through a difficult but hopefully transient phase?

Who has experiences to support each side of the argument please?

I took my son out of very academic North London prep at the end of year 3 because he was not happy: he was struggling with handwriting and times tables and his self esteem had crashed. He was depressed.

We had him see an ed psych and, whilst he has a high IQ, he has features of dyspraxia, including an auditory processing disorder, physical dsicomfort with handwriting and a working memory problem.

It was difficult to decide what to do and the situation is even harder for the OP since she has twins. I can't really offer solutions; but I do sympathise. We ended up sending DS to boarding school at the beginning of Year 4. It achieves great CE results; but there is a much broader ability range and far more patience with the boys with difficulties. He's still bottom in maths but doing much much better generally; and he is happy.

For what it is worth, the creative opportunities at both schools are fabulous

I forgot to say: I would wait until you have the ed psych's report, then have a full and frank discussion with your sons' school on the approach they intend to take on the basis of its findings. If you like what they say, you may be comfortable staying where you are. If not, you can then have the same conversations at other schools

do be careful that if you move both of them, the DS who is thriving may feel resentful to his brother for being the reason he is out of there.

I would investigate having them both at different schools as an option, or else to make sure you tell them you will move them because it would be better for BOTH.

...speaking of a mother of 2 boys.

I think the relationship between 2 brothers is very precious, but can be competitive or things deemed "unfair" can tip the balance.

Thanks for the views. Lots to think about. Will wait for Ed Psychs report and also see what happens at the meeting on friday - if I can attend (DS1 was well enough to go into school this morning and 'face' detention. Hope he's OK)

I know a lot about the other schools both state and private and that's why it's so hard to consider other options. I've read loads of Ofsted reports and also visited tons of schools before either of my twins started any school.

Their current school has outstanding Ofsted reports at all 3 parts of the school whereas the other private schools don't. Their current school is much much less 'posh/ snobby' than two of the other 3 private schools and so our family fits better here (they offer bursaries for some children).

The local 2 state schools - though of course there might not be palces available to my DCs - are pretty good but nothing like as good in terms of results, have bigger class sizes and far less in the way of facilities and extracurricular stuff on offer. But more importantly, the senior local state school is a different league away from the senior school where they're at in terms of everything....poorer academic results, more problems with drugs/ criminal activity.

I might look further at the third fee-paying school - the one with the reputation for being for children who aren't getting on academically or socially/ emotionally. I like the fact it only has 16 children per class but as it's so small, may therefore not even have spaces available. Not sure it's the right school for DS1 anyway.

There would be a massive problem with DS1 leaving his current school and DS2 staying. DS1 al;ready says he's the 'stupid one' - untrue and this would confirm to him, more than anything else to date, that he'd 'failed' at his current school and joined a school known to be for students who are struggling in all kind of ways.....

Glad your DS is feeling better today.

Re: your local state schools and their results - well of course their results won't show up as well as the private schools, - they don't cherry pick the 3-year-olds and then hothouse and pressurise them for the next few years. They have to take all comers! However, a bright child with plenty of support from home, and possibly extra tutoring at secondary level if needed, will do just as well at state though, and without being on such a miserable treadmill as it seems your boys are now.

And if they do attend state secondary this may advantage them later when applying to uni, given the noises the government were making the other week about 'encouraging' top unis to take more state-educated students.

it would perhaps make more sense if you removed both boys, even though DS2 is not having any problems (so far anyway).

Apart from logistic reasons, you can then present it to your DSs that it is the school that is failing, not DS1. (which is true, of course).

There you go again "a school for students struggling in all kinds of ways". I still think this is your issue, not his. And if it is his it is far from insurmountable. Have you taken him to look at it and talked to them about what they can do for him?

I'm so confused. In first post you said it was an academically select private school, now you're saying "current school" has an Outstanding Ofsted report; do private schools get graded by Ofsted? .

Ragged, yes, this is a private school and they have Ofsted inspections as well as Independent Schools Inspectorates.

Talked again today to the twins about exploring schools where they might be happier and there was a hue and cry from them and lots of "Don't make me leave mummy!" Oh dear!

I'm having a meeting with two staff tomorrow and maybe this'll give me a better idea of how much the school can help and how much they can't.

Do you know what. It is horses for courses. If it isn't right for your DS find a school that is.

If the third school is for children who are struggling socially and/or academically then it surely sounds like a good fit for your son who fits both categories.

Solo, I'm going through this a bit with my 9 year old son (Yr5) - also an idie school with a huge reputation.

I'm not convinced the yr 5 teacher he's copped for this year is that great at the pastrol side of things. She's very prescriptive and doles out 'detentions' very quickly IMO. One poor lad only joined three weeks ago and he's had a detention already for not getting his reading record signed and not reading 5+ times per week (reading out of terror rather than for pleasure - brilliant, not).

Last year, things were much different. DS had a male teacher who really 'got' him and helped him manage some of his quirky behaviour. He helped him understand how certain things he was doing/saying were turning the other children away from him - in other words, my DS was getting guidance as well as good academic schooling.

I've decided (I think!) to ride out the storm and see what yr 6 brings. The entrance exam with be in the January of Yr 6 and once the damn thing has been sat, year 6 get a much easier rise. Year 5 is THE year for graft - all towards those entrance exams.

If yr6 turns out to be unsuitable as well,I can feel fairly confident that the senior school isn't going to be right either and I'll be moving him to a different secondary.

The way I see it, there'll be huge changes at secondary entry, with loads of kids going all over the place, so it won't seem like DS is being shifted as a punishment or because he's not up to this school!

Be aware also - something I've noticed since last September, summat odd happens to this age group (boys - don't know about girls). Loads from DS's school seem to have undergone some kind of transformation - like an early taster for teenagehood! I think it might be a combination of hormonal/pressure of Yr5.

Thanks Doodlez and everyone. Had a fairly good meeting this morning with the deputy head and the form teacher. They've said they're going to have regular 'pastoral' chats with my son and ask how things are going - although I've warned them that he's likely to lie and say all is well, as he hates admitting at school that he's not coping/ not happy. They're also going to see if they can identify a few other boys who would be socially skilled enough to ask DS1 to join in something with them, if they see him looking lonely.

They've also said they'll talk to all other staff about DS1's low self-esteem regarding his academic ability. I felt fairly reassured but as I was leaving, I was accosted by the Maths teacher....

He told me that DS1 had been very rude and inattentive yesterday and so he'd threatened to put him down a group and separated him from the class etc. (Great, that'll really boost his self-confidence!)

I reminded the teacher about the wider context - DS1 was having a one hour detention that night because he gave into a bully (that I'd warned the school about last term) and did something wrong for fear or 'losing' a friend and so was punished. (I think unfairly - see my thread on AIBU)

DS1 was crying all week about the pending detention so that by yesterday - before the after school punishment, he was in an awful state all day about it and this probably tipped him over the edge.

We spoke about DS1's lack of confidence in maths and the teacher kept contradicating himself - as he always does. He kept saying, "DS1's problem is that he lacks confidence and we need to help him to realise he can be good at maths" but in the next breath, "DS1's problem is lack of concentration and he needs to be pulled up more for lack of focus and to stop day-dreaming and realise there are consequences to his behaviour".

Both statements maybe true but I think the diffulty for DS1 must be that this teacher is unpredictable in his expectations (and not v good at teaching maths either). He tries to play the 'cool young guy' with the children but then suddenly becomes the strict disciplinarian.

Anyway, the better news was that he also told me that they're planning to split the three maths groups into 4! YAY!!!!! At last! Parents have been wanting this largest school year group split into 4 from the start! Whilst it looks likely that DS1 will be 'demoted' into a lower group, he'll hopefully get a better teacher for him and there'll only be about 18 children per group instead of 26 for this key subject.

The maths teacher then admitted that they don't yet know who would be the fourth maths teacher and my heart sinks somewhat that they'll simply bring in yet another inexperienced supply teacher or newly qualified f/t teacher ....but maybe it will end up positively.

So my plan now is, like Doodlez, to see how things pan out across Yr 5 and especially post these pending exams. There are more exams in May too but at least these ones will soon be out of the way.

After the exams, the pressure whould be off a bit. Meanwhile, I'll continue to explore what other options there might be for a different school. yes, the third school I referred to might be right for DS1. The thing is that he - like his peers - knows the school's local reputation and this would take some arguing against and making him feel it might be really good for him - not a sign of personal failure.

Solo2 - I'm glad the meeting went fairly well. My DC are younger so I don't know how qualified I am to comment, but here goes anyway!

The maths teacher sounds awful and it seems like your DS1 is struggling. Surely there is no need for him to be doing hours of homework and 11+ work at his age if it is making him unhappy?

So, why doesn't your DS1 move into the lower set for a while? I know how competitive children are about sets, but if this were presented to him sympathetically by his form teacher as an opportunity to consolidate the basics (and informally by you as an opportunity to escape this dreadful teacher!) he might get over it quickly as he settles well into the new class. Being near the top of a lower set might build his confidence. He can always move up next year...

You could also talk to the teachers about the amount of homework. It is quite possible that they do not realise how much time it is taking him. Perhaps they should be setting more open ended tasks that take up a specific time (eg an hour reading about the Romans)

a couple of thoughts anyway. Do keep us updated

Solo, this school sounds all too ready to label and blame children - 9yos, for goodness' sake.

I remember your posts about the PE/maths bloke and he was not a good teacher, he really wasn't.

Please don't put up with any nonsense from this school. You have severe misgivings about the school and IMO you're right - they don't accept responsibility but prefer to say it's the kids' fault for being 'rude' or 'uncooperative'.

Remember that you are all they have and as much as you expect adults to treat them well, some adults won't do this. You have to stand up for them. kick ass a little - the teachers might surprise you and actually treat you better if you show them some authority. They probably expect it.

Remember your boys are just 9 year old boys who will learn alot by climbing trees and experiancing life as 9 year olds should. Homework that is making your son cry is too much. He wont learn by doing this other than to hate it. I am sure you want then to find learning a joy. Ds2 is 10 year 6 . The most he has for maths is 2 peices a week which take about 40 mins. English they have been told not to spend more than 30 mins on. What about talking to the school about limiting the homework for your son. Do go and look at the other schools. Their school has probably instilled in them that it is the best but best for who. There are many instances of schools deemed excellent failing a particular child. Its about finding the right fit. It is good the school is talking but good schools have bad teachers too. Some of which wouldnt cope in a lesser school. Remember they will never be 9 again

Good post, Mary21...I would add that even if you do move them (which I am actually cheering for, fwiw!) they will always have each other - you're in a privileged position with that aspect, I'm trying to move my own son at the moment and he will be going somewhere without a special friend, somewhere that he hardly knows anyone, and I would give anything for him to have a twin to take with him.

Well, this much I did (and do) know: Ofsted ratings are mostly based on detailed paperwork and high exam results. They don't have a lot to do with good pastoral care or quality of teaching.

The only thing I would like to add is to please remember they are NINE years old, they are children and I know it may sound corny but they really do only have one childhood. Let them be happy. Y5 kids doing "important" exams is absolute nonsense. Important exams take place when they are doing GCSE'S ans A levels.

We have three extremely bright DC's one who currenty in Y9 could arguably have sat and passed some of them last year. We do not want her to be pushed we want her to enjoy her childhood,and have a social life with her friends.

The history of these 'important exams' is that up until last year, all children at the prep had to sit an exam in Yr 6, to see if they could get into the seniors. Yr 5 therefore became the year of pressure as they all had to come up to standard and around Feb of Yr 5 was the time staff would inform parents if the children should really be looking for places as other schools as they weren't clever enough to make it to the seniors.

Since last yr, the senior school entrance exam has just been banished for children from the prep (although external candidates have to do it). However, this means that yr 5 is still the year wheer staff tell parents if they can't support the child going into the seniors, as they're not clever enough. In that case, either the parents then still try to get the child in - but the child then has to do the external exam and has already got a 'report' from the prep to discourage the prep taking him/her - or look for places at other schools.

Also, since the exam has bene abolished for internal candidates, the school is keen not to be seen to 'make a mistake' by supporting the child's acceptance to the seniors - but the child then fails to get on OK there.

So - the Feb. Yr 5 exams - are the prep's own way of deciding who goes on to the seniors. There is one final chance, however, as if your child is failing, then you get told what he/she needs to be better at and you then have till the next set of exams in May Yr 5 to prove that your child has improved (presumably with lots of extra work at home and private tuition).

So that's why these exams are so 'important'.

Incidentally, the school's Ofsted section on Pastoral Care was particularly outstanding, as they'd just appointed a Head of Pastoral Care who was without doubt the bext teacher in the school and extremely good with sorting out the issues my son has had.

Sadly, she's on long term sick and her absence has had a negative knock-on effect - especially of course for my son.

Solo to me your posts sound so sad . And you pay with hard earned cash for the schools? There sounds like there is an awful lot wrong here.

I live in London but am able to live in Australia and as much as I love London I really feel I will have to move once my children make it to school age.

You sound like you are trying to assuage your conscience keeping your child in a school that is purgatory for him.

The message you are sending him is "this is the best school, you can't cope, you are a failure." and the school is sending this message as well. This is going to set him up for a life of feeling useless and low self esteem.

It is actually possible to say, "this school is good for a lot of children, but not mine."

My friend sent her son to the "best" school in the area and it nearly destroyed him. In the end she pulled him out and put him in a school less well regarded but with what she saw as better care and not this dreadful "reach this bar or you are a failure" approach. It changed his personality overnight, and he was so much happier.

Can we cut the OP a bit of slack? I don't think she is necessarily favouring a hothouse school because of it's reputation - she is trying to achieve the right solution for both of her boys whilst working full-time and as a single parent.

She needs to consider the impact of splitting her boys (both logistically but also the huge emotional impact on them) or of taking one who has mild aspergers out of a school that he enjoys because his twin brother is struggling in some areas.

It sounds like the maths teacher is a major source of problems, so hopefully things will look up if DS1 gets moved to a different maths group.

Good luck - it's a difficult decision and you sound like you are doing the right thing.

But she isn't trying that hard, she won't look at all the options! I mean actually go and look at the schools and talk to the staff about her kids, she is just working on preconceptions.

She's working with the school to try to get things sorted and trying to find an option that avoids disrupting her twins. Yes, going to look at another school might be a good idea, but also quite unsettling to her boys.