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Original poster

A little concerned about ds1's teacher...long!

164 replies

marthamoo · 30/09/2005 10:45

Now I know teachers are only human and they do make mistakes. Not a problem. But ds1 has just gone into Year 4 - what are we now, 4 weeks into term?

So far:

He came home with the word "traditionary" as one of his spellings. Now it is a word (I didn't think it was, I've never heard it used, but I looked it up) but I was fairly sure it was a mistake. I said he had probably copied it down wrongly and it was likely to be traditional or traditionally.

I went to parent's evening (just one where the teachers tell you what kind of thing they will be doing over the academic year). One of the parents asked the teacher about the word "traditionary" - at which point about 8 others piped up and queried it too. Mrs X looked completely blank - and said "well, do you have a dictionary at home?" It was fairly obvious that was what she had written on the board - and she couldn't see why we were querying it.

Anyway - that's not so bad. It did turn out to be traditionally in the test, btw.

So on to numeracy. I posted one of the questions of ds1's maths sheet which he had trouble with last week (which is why I asked for help finding the thread last night and QofQ kindly found it for me). The question was

4 = [ ] - 10

Ds thought it was 6 (reading it backwards) and I said it was 14. I wanted to check though 'cos I'm crap at maths Anyway I was right.
Ds1 came home yesterday and said "hey, Mum - I was right about that sum - it was 6. You made me put the wrong answer!" ???? Do they do maths differently these days? Incidentally, I didn't just 'tell' him the right answer - I explained why that was the right answer.

He had another maths sheet this week. One of the things was writing the time on a clock face. This sheet he brought back - he got it right, it's been marked wrong.

I don't know whether to go in and query all this, or whether to let it go. I feel a bit cross about it - you learn from your mistakes, but you learn from what you get right too, don't you? I mean, it's only 3 little things but - 3 in 4 weeks? Plus, from an aggrieved mother PofV, it is galling to be told that she must be right because she is a teacher - implication being that I know nothing

Shall I just let it go?

OP posts:
Janh · 03/10/2005 16:43

I am hopeless at explaining things in writing even when it isn't numbers - it always comes out wrong!

Mog · 03/10/2005 16:53

I know what you're getting at tortoise, but equations have to say the same thing on the right and left of the equals sign. Your example does, taking account of the negative signs, but the original example doesn't i.e. 6-10 is -4 and not 4 as the teacher is trying to say.

aloha · 03/10/2005 16:55

she's wrong!

binkie · 03/10/2005 16:56

I think it does work, you just have to start completely at the left, or completely at the right.

So, from the left, "4 is the same as 14 take away 10".

From the right, "10 take away 6 is the same as 4". ("4 sa emas eht si 6 yawa ekat 10")

The only hint of defence I've been able to find on Govt website is that teachers are meant to tell children to "work towards the equals sign", so presumably start from whichever side of the equals sign the gap is. But I still think it's silly, exactly because when they start doing formal "order of operations" stuff they will have drummed into them that they must do division and subtraction left to right.

MM, I would also chuck about the term "anti-commutative". Which is what subtraction is, apparently, and why it matters how you set out the sum.

Mog · 03/10/2005 16:59

It can't be right because you get two different answers depending which way you read it
from the left 6-10 = -4
from the right 6-10 = 4

binkie · 03/10/2005 17:03

No, start completely at the right. Start with the 10 - "10 take away what? makes 4" - gives the teacher's answer of 6.

Anyway, yes there are two different answers, both equally valid but their "correctness" depends on what convention you've read the sum by.

katierocket · 03/10/2005 17:06

but surely the point is that reading an equation L to R is fairly obscure way of doing it and on what basis are the children supposed to know from which end to start?

katierocket · 03/10/2005 17:06

sorry I meant "reading an equations R to L is a fairly obscure way..."

Mog · 03/10/2005 17:22

So am I going to be one of those parents who has to day 'Well they didn't do it like that in my day'

MrsMills · 03/10/2005 17:25

Got the reply. He says quote 'after a long period of deep thought, the answer is 14'

It is not up for debate.

Ask to see where she got such a ridiculous answer from.

tortoiseshell · 03/10/2005 17:34

I'm sure it's that if you read it from right to left it reads "Minus 10 ....... equals Plus Four. So it would be "Minus 10 Plus Fourteen equals Plus Four."

I'm sure the minus has to be attached to the ten, whether you read from right to left or left to right.

Mog - not arguing that the teacher is right btw, just trying to see what she is thinking!

YeahBut · 03/10/2005 17:39

Teacher is wrong. The worrying thing is her inablility to recognise or admit to that. You should have a word with the head or deputy.

soapbox · 03/10/2005 17:51

Moo - from another extremely numerate household - she is definately talking crap.

Ask her what is going to happen when they start doing negative numbers? How will the equation work then?

Binkies won't work then either.

It is catagorically the case that 4 = 14-10

or that -4 = 6-10.

There is no debate at all. It has been thus since the days of teh ancient greeks and it will be so until the world implodes!!

Give her a pile of 6 sweets and tell her to give you 10 back - there ain't no way in this dear life that she is going to be able to do it - and have 4 left to boot - ha! ha! ha!

happymerryberries · 03/10/2005 18:01

and echo what others have said, minus isn't somthing that you 'do' it is something that 'is'.

4= 14-10

basilisk · 03/10/2005 18:06

Utter balderdash, and very confusing for the children. Wait till they decide to do any bit of any sum the way round they fancy!!!

Seriously, i'm a primary school maths coordinator and i'd be horrified if children were taught this in my school. I always do my first lesson of the year on the true meaning and importance of the equals sign. Have changed my name because i've just started a new job and I can be traced to where I work now through previous posts. But feel free to say I was just talking to a maths coordinator and ....

SoupDragon · 03/10/2005 18:36

"She likened it to a set of scales - with the equals as the pivot and each side has to balance."

So, on one side you have 4 and on the other you need the numbers 14 and -10, no matter which way you read it. The woman is a loon.

aloha · 03/10/2005 19:02

she's wrong. talk to her again or the head!

happymerryberries · 03/10/2005 19:06

I would talk with her first and then if you get no joy, then go to the head. For the life of me I can't think of a good reason for her to be teaching this....to my mind it is wrong, but I suppose there is a minescule chance this is part of some great scheme that none of us know about (unlikely I grant you) but have a work with her before you talk to her boss

aloha · 03/10/2005 19:08

yes, always talk to teacher first, but this one isn't budging!
I have never heard of such a thing. all my maths teachers were terrifying but sane.

soapbox · 03/10/2005 19:08

HMB - don't start wavering

Go on - give her the sweets - it is not possible!

debutante · 03/10/2005 19:10

I'm not defending the woman at all. She hasn't moved anyone's learning on at all in this case and I don't think she set the task with the peverse idea of provoking debate on mumsnet. However I will say after years in the classroom that even the best of us can, from time to time, make simple mistakes whilst trying to do too many things at once. There seem to be so many threads berating teachers. Some of them are ok.. although this one seems to be having a few bad days.

happymerryberries · 03/10/2005 19:11

Oh I quite agree!

OTOH I teach things to kids that I know are wrong, or at least not totaly right. And I have to do it due to the NC!

For example there is no single 'Brown eye' gene.

But I have to teach it to the kids because it comes up in exams, crap but true.

There is a teeny, tiny chance that she might have been instructed to do this, though for the life of me I cannot think why

soapbox · 03/10/2005 19:12

Debutante - of course we all have off days - but in any profession surely the real mark of the man(or woman) is to admit when they have got something wrong!

This could potentially confuse children and it is so unnecessary, the answer is wrong why on earth can she not admit it!

katierocket · 03/10/2005 19:12

Do keep us posted moo, I've very intrigued to hear the outcome.

happymerryberries · 03/10/2005 19:13

Oh god, I can't spell and all the kids I teach know this. I can spell in science and I do correct their spelling of science words. It doesn't stop me being a reasonable science teacher tho even if I do at the spelling sometimes. But I think if would be different if I was showing fundimental errors in the subject I was teaching them