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Education

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What do you think of the Education White Paper?

390 replies

Shamster · 25/11/2010 17:35

Our head went through the key points at last nights staff meeting and the effect was pretty depressing. Sounds stupid but two of us almost started crying! Just wondered if anyone has read it for themselves, rather than picking up whichever bits each paper decides to highlight according to their leanings. If you have; what do you think?

OP posts:
moondog · 27/11/2010 09:48

I do wish some of you would stop talking so glibly about languages being 'phonetic'. It is meaningless.

If you are going to use words like this, then make an effort to understand what they mean. Doesn't look good at all for people to be arguing that reading involves more than decoding when they then write in a way that demonstrates a lack of understanding of basic terms.

mrz · 27/11/2010 09:50

Training

Additional Inspectors (the people who come into schools) are trained by Ofsted's partner organisations. The training consists of two days' distance learning, three tutored days and two further days on an inspection attachment with a mentor. They are expected to fund their own training fees.

c0rns1lk · 27/11/2010 09:52

moondog I agree

c0rns1lk · 27/11/2010 09:54

shamster the dyslexia action link didn't work - can you post it again

c0rns1lk · 27/11/2010 09:59

'Dyslexia Action, amongst other establishments, recommend a systematic daily programme of synthetic phonics for a reason - it really works'
this is true I have worked for them - but children with spld often move through a programme of phonics very slowly. This means that some words have to be taught as sight or irregular words and taught in a different way as the children have not reached the stage of phonic tuition to be able to decode them. The phonic programmes used in school move much more quickly.

Feenie · 27/11/2010 10:09

Thanks abr1de Smile

The programmes I've seen from Dyslexia Action didn't include any sight words - some partially decodable 'tricky' words, yes.

All of our dyslexic children learn to read well using rigorous synthetic phonics teaching, thankfully. We have two autistic children who use sight words though, and that's clearly been the best thing for them.

jackstarbright · 27/11/2010 10:12

In the White Paper there is a piece on Old Ford Primary in Tower Hamlets. The school was also profiled on the John Humphy's BBC2 programme a few weeks ago.

The pupil intake is seriously deprived and yet they achieve above average KS2 results.

On the TV programme they showed the 'enrichment' activities the children take part in. They are given experiences than most children take for granted (trips to parks, the cinema..).

It is a very well funded school (I believe) but the expecations of staff and pupils are very high. I think this is what Gove is aiming for.

c0rns1lk · 27/11/2010 10:13

Fennie what I'm trying to say (though very badly) is that 'partially decodable 'tricky' words' often cannot be decoded by children who are following a spld programme of phonics as they have not reached the stage of tuition within their specifc programme to be able to decode them - they are often then taught as sight or irregular words, as the child is not able to decode them but needs to be able to use the word.

Feenie · 27/11/2010 10:17

I suspect what I'm calling 'tricky' words and what you say are 'irregular' ones are probably both the same, tbh.

c0rns1lk · 27/11/2010 10:19

probably - they're irregular to the child as they haven't reached the stage within their specific programme to be able to decode them

mrz · 27/11/2010 10:21

jackstarbright it's what we should all be aiming for

Feenie · 27/11/2010 10:24

Too right, mrz Smile

granted · 27/11/2010 10:31

To get back to the point, what do you experienced lot of teachers think of the changes in the White Paper, then?

As a parent, my heart sinks at the thought of more upheaval - however good - but I am hopeful about the scaling back of the National Curriculum (I stopped teaching ESOL in FE because I found the paperwork in triplicate and diktats from on high such a bloody waste of time and so counter-productive as far as meeting my students' actual needs went).

I'm also pleased they're stressing the need for 5 good gcses in proper subjects.

But interesting to hear from those teaching in our schools on a daily basis.

mrz · 27/11/2010 10:32

I think "my" school will possibly be a winner on pupil premium (when the details are made clear) but a loser on the funding for the type of "enrichment " experiences you describe jackstarbright ...
[wait and see smilie]

mrz · 27/11/2010 10:36

I agree about the "good" GCSE subjects granted I smile every year when the TV news reveals pupils opening results saying I've got an A* in facebook, itunes, texting, heat magazine and shopping Hmm

Feenie · 27/11/2010 10:44

"Feenie; last time I'm going to respond to you. You have been insulting and you have been rude. MNHQ do not actually tolerate any rudeness and there is no justification for it."

I imagine MNHQ are struggling to find a post where I have actually been rude to you then, Shamster - as am I? None of my posts have been deleted as yet. Hmm

ShanahansRevenge · 27/11/2010 10:52

Mrz...but it does say "additional inspectors" which means that these are extras? I asume the bulk of them receive more training than that?

Ayway...they have had SOME training....that's more than I have had so I would rather hear their opinions as well as form my own than just be left to it.

LilyBolero · 27/11/2010 10:56

My 2 eldest children are both excellent readers, well ahead of the 'set standard' for their age.

DS1 learnt to read almost primarily by sight-words. He saw a word, learnt it, then knew it. Never really 'got' phonics - I don't think I ever saw him sound out a word. His spelling is excellent as he has 'learnt' so many words by sight.

Dd taught herself by phonics. Her spelling is less good as she still spells phonetically, unless it is a word she has learnt in a writing context. Now she is Y3 the differences are much less obvious, as her spelling has improved a lot, and obviously can read a lot of irregular words, which helps with the spelling.

Ds2 is in reception, just starting to read, he is enjoying the phonics, but obviously some 'tricky' words just have to be learnt - his tricky words so far are 'to', 'I', 'the' and 'he'.

Re looking at pictures - that is simply using a variety of techniques to get to the right word - we all do this, though in adult books obviously pictorial clues aren't used. Context is though. Certainly the children at the kids' school are encouraged to 'have a go', using any and all the clues on the page, which includes the pictures. For example, ds2's reading book this week includes sentences such as "Is he in the basket?". He knows all the words except for basket, but there is a picture of a basket on the page, and he can see the word begins with 'b', so the context of the sentence, the picture and the starting letter lead him to read the word basket. And he is SO excited by the idea that he is reading - he stops every so often and says "I'm reading - I'm really reading!!!!". Given that he only really learnt to speak 6-9 months ago (speech delay, hearing issues), it's quite incredible!

And for those who think English IS a langauge that is easily learned using phonics, think about George Bernard Shaw's Ghoti....

And also;
I take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble but not you
On hiccough, thorough, slough and through.
Well done! And now you wish perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead, it's said like bed, not bead-
for goodness' sake don't call it 'deed'!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).

A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth, or brother,
And here is not a match for there,
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's doze and rose and lose-
Just look them up- and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart-
Come, I've hardly made a start!
A dreadful language? Man alive!
I'd learned to speak it when I was five!
And yet to write it, the more I sigh,
I'll not learn how 'til the day I die.

onimolap · 27/11/2010 11:03

mrz is right about the training, but inspectors are required to have a relevant (but not further specified) qualification and several years recent experince (role unspecified) in the type of setting they inspect.

The quality of inspectors varies, as does their attitude.

mrz · 27/11/2010 11:04

Ofsted puts inspections "outsourced" to private companies who actually carry out the inspections in Ofsted's name these are the people who go into schools ofstednews.ofsted.gov.uk/article/481

one of the companies

mrz · 27/11/2010 11:06

onimolap having been inspected in reception class by one inspector who admitted his background was working in industry and another who was an accountant I'm afraid that isn't quite true...

pickledsiblings · 27/11/2010 11:08

Thanks for the link to the White Paper. Will read and come back.

mrz · 27/11/2010 11:17

Ds2 is in reception, just starting to read, he is enjoying the phonics, but obviously some 'tricky' words just have to be learnt - his tricky words so far are 'to', 'I', 'the' and 'he'
but now he has learnt those tricky words (and hopefully the "tricky" part has been pointed out) he will be equipped to read 'do' and ''I'm' and 'she' 'we' 'me' 'be' etc...

LilyBolero · 27/11/2010 11:18

As long as he doesn't come across go or no....

mrz · 27/11/2010 11:25

Hopefully if the teacher knows what they are doing they will teach 'go' 'no' and 'so' together so he knows that when he sees these words the 'o' represents either /oo/ or /oa/ fortunately the majority of children find it easy

The ghoti poem is a bit of fun but in practice 'gh' never represents /f/ at the beginning of words (which hopefully children are taught)