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Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

What do you think of the Education White Paper?

390 replies

Shamster · 25/11/2010 17:35

Our head went through the key points at last nights staff meeting and the effect was pretty depressing. Sounds stupid but two of us almost started crying! Just wondered if anyone has read it for themselves, rather than picking up whichever bits each paper decides to highlight according to their leanings. If you have; what do you think?

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AdelaofBlois · 29/11/2010 13:48

Cameron said that unionised public service workers would never vote Conservative because 'you can't expect Turkeys to vote for Christmas'. There the last vestige of union power, why wouldn't he attack?

But on SCIIT I really don't know. I did a PGCE, taught as an NQT, then returned to research and later work in academia, where training is the odd course set alongside professional practice and review. And although I was positively appraised in both systems, I know I was a much better university teacher for that level or training than I was a primary one. And the teacher most able-like mrz and others here-to combine personal reflection and literature review at the school I currently volunteer at is an ex-TA who did the GTP, not the NQTs who still teach as told to.

But it is surely a worry that people who are in some ways opposed to what teaching stands for are being drafted in with no professionalisation period worth speaking of. Again, don't think the same privileges would be offered to academics whose jobs are being cut at the moment....

Tikiinasantahat · 29/11/2010 13:49

I think maizie summed it up beautifully.

AdelaofBlois · 29/11/2010 13:51

maizieD

I wasn't being in any way sarcastic, I meant it. The willingness of teachers to give their own time on this site is exemplary, I wasn't suggesting you all had too much time on your hands. Sorry if it seemed I were.

LilyBolero · 29/11/2010 13:56

fwiw I agree with your last post totally. :)

maizieD · 29/11/2010 13:58

LilyB:

"I have to tailor the way I teach that, depending on the child. Some children (and again, ds1 is like this) get the idea that 'this note is A, so play this note', some children don't have the middle bit, so they know what key a printed note corresponds to, but wouldn't necessarily get the note name, some go by the sound (dd is like this) etc etc. If I stuck rigidly to one system, a certain number of children wouldn't learn to read music at all."

Well, that is fascinating because I was thinking earlier that an analogy could be made between reading music and reading words. I'm not sure,
though, that I completely follow your explanation of how children learn to read music differently. So it's not just a case of 'That dot in that position on the stave means you play that note' then? How do you 'go by the sound'? Is this like learning to play by ear?

Genuinely interested.

I wouldn't presume to pronounce on the best way to learn to read music. I taught myself to do it in a rudimentary fashion many years ago, but I wouldn't recommend it as a method.

LilyBolero · 29/11/2010 14:15

Ok, you've got various different strategies for reading music. Remember that music is in 'real time', so, just like reading aloud, you don't want to be starting and stopping, you want to keep the flow going.

Sight recognition - this can be done in 2 ways - either - that dot on that line is an A, this key/finger is A, therefore that's what I play, or more succintly, that dot represents that key. Familiarity makes this correlation faster until it is done instantaneously.

Sound recognition - this is how dd plays when she is learning - she knows what a written note sounds like on the piano, and finds that note before starting. I'm not convinced she knows the names of the notes on the piano, but she could sing them, and given written music could sing the pitches accurately. If they know the tune that can also help guide them.

Numerical - the notes are read in the context of hand position - each finger numbered 1-5 - this enables them to quickly learn recognisable tunes, as it can be discouraging otherwise.

Pictorial and contextual - what does the line of music look like? Are the notes going up or down generally? By jump or by step? Are they fast notes or slow notes (shown by spacing). Is the line smooth or jagged? Where is a note in relation to its neighbour?

That sort of thing really. The aim is to get the processing from eye to hand as instantaneous as possible, and different children respond better to different approaches. The only thing you really can't mix and match is suzuki and traditional as suzuki doesn't introduce any notation till much later on, and children do seem to struggle if they swap between the 2 (I don't teach suzuki).

Hope that's of interest! It's only a broad overview and sometimes I find myself inventing new ways if it works with a particular child. Away from the piano, a certain amount of theory helps (writing down notes etc), but I try and keep it as piano-related as possible so they can see the relevance.

LilyBolero · 29/11/2010 14:16

Meant to add, there is also the 'experience' element - especially with chords - where you know the sort of thing that is likely to be written!

minimathsmouse · 29/11/2010 14:37

MazieD, your concerns are probably unfounded. If you read the paper you will find that the LEAs will continue to run the admission process. There is a problem with Gove saying free schools and academies will offer choice, with schools able to create their own ethos, whilst the LEA will allocate places accoring to what? Post code of course.

mrz · 29/11/2010 14:47

and of course all parents will want their child to attend the school that is bottom of the league table

minimathsmouse · 29/11/2010 14:54

I am really shocked that the dismantling of the state education system seems to be of so little interest. It seems that phonics is a religion, if so is Miskin god?

Phonics is the best way to teach the majority of children to read, that is indisputable, but it isn't the only way. I learnt by sight, because I was taught that way and later I became aware of how to break down words I didn't know. I didn't read fluently until I was 7, but unlike Mrz I have read all of this thread and I read all of the white paper in less than 20 mins!!! it would be nice now to discuss its implications with other interested people.

Shamster asked a sensible question and for doing so she has been attacked, what does this say about the people who go into teaching? How do people pass exams? By answering questions on material they have read, studied and understood. How on earth can you justify your position when you can't answer a simple question.

mrz · 29/11/2010 14:55

I believe phonics works but not a Miskin fan so where do I fit in?

minimathsmouse · 29/11/2010 14:55

mrz, your point is what exactly? league tables, we have those now, in what way will the situation change? please enlighten us.

mrz · 29/11/2010 14:56

If you have read all the thread you will see many of the points of the White paper have been mentioned (not just phonics)

minimathsmouse · 29/11/2010 14:58

I am asking you mrz, in what way will children be disadvantaged under the proposals of the white paper and in what way will league tables contribute to this?

minimathsmouse · 29/11/2010 14:59

Drumming fingers on desk!!!

minimathsmouse · 29/11/2010 15:01

Given up drumming fingers on desk and gone shopping!

mrz · 29/11/2010 15:03

No my point is that although LEAs control admissions where are the parents who will choose the old badly maintained school over the nice brand new academy or free school?

mrz · 29/11/2010 15:05

Sorry mini I'm afraid I'm using the snow day to print and laminate some materials for my class so not sat eagerly awaiting your responses.

Shamster · 29/11/2010 15:11

The unions are aware of the massive change. That anyone can be trained to be a teacher in 6 weeks is the ridiculous idea I've heard in my life. Not only that but it's insulting to those of us who spent 4 years training and still have much to learn after years of experience.I like the idea of in school training as part of the degree, muchas the GTC is now (Graduate Training Programme) but it sounded to e, like they were going take colleges out of the loop altogether. Not such a good idea.

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claig · 29/11/2010 15:17

Agree that it is insulting. They must know that, but they are pushing ahead anyway.

mrz · 29/11/2010 15:17

But the first of the "Teach First" guinea pigs are in secondary schools beginning their second year of teaching and far better than those who spent longer learning the trade according to the press ...

Shamster · 29/11/2010 15:17

I really, really am worried about the free school/academy movement. That is the end, as far as I can see, of a state education system that delivers equality to all. Am I right in thinking others, Mrz and MazieD are also worried about this or have I misunderstood? I wish I had a laminator at home. I could be getting on with that too. You'll laugh when I say I'm actually writing some questions to ask SEN children about dyslexia friendly classrooms and what they think helps them.

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mrz · 29/11/2010 15:19

The problem with in school training is it relies on the goodwill of existing teachers to take on the extra workload of mentoring a student.

mrz · 29/11/2010 15:23

Luckily I bought a new A3 laminator from Tesco with my shopping a couple of weeks ago Grin

Feenie · 29/11/2010 15:23

"Shamster asked a sensible question and for doing so she has been attacked, what does this say about the people who go into teaching?"

It wasn't quite as simple as that, Minimathsmouse - Shamster talked about the White Paper, and in doing so asserted some things about the teaching of phonics lacking any teaching of a love of books, comprehension and some people thought that was a bit daft.

Why are you bringing it up again though, since everyone had progressed ages ago onto discussing the White Paper quite happily?